Is bad parenting learnt?

[Roach]

All through the posts on this board people are continually posting
"my (enter apisto's name) just ate its 483rd bunch of eggs! What am I doing wrong? All the water params are perfect.....etc blah blah blah"
This also brings me to "should I pull the parents out and raise the eggs myself?" A question I have also asked just recently.
Is good/bad parenting passed on between parents and fry?
If the parents are pulled, does the fry grow up with no idea about parenting having not been a recipient, and would it more likely be an egg eater?
Does a fry that has been raised with one or both parents have a better chance of being a good parent itself??
I think I'm just confusing myself here

 

[fishgeek]

i have never pulled egg's and raised them

i have with many apisto's had problems with egg eating for what i think maybe some more common reasons
- young or inexperienced adults, often they dont get it right the first time
- too much keeper interference , looking at egg's messing in tank etc can, i think, frighten the fish into eating egg's

the only fish that i have kept and bred(cac's/aggies/fresa/biteaniata/panduro/macmasteri and both rams) that i havent had parental success with is the microgeophagus ram

how can a fish be perpetuated naturally that always eats it's young

if you go into the genetics vs enviroment arguement i'm sure there wont be a proven answer , just a lot of varied opinion

andrew

 

[Mike Wise]

Like Andrew, I never artificially raise apistos. It's more because I am a lazy aquarist. Most cichlids will eventurally get it right after a while if everything is perfect. A captive (aquarium) environment, however, is never perfect. I believe most spawns are lost due to too many disturbances in and around the breeding tank. That means not being around the aquarium any more than is necessary - hard to do if you want to see your fish! For those who want to successfully breed a species, I think Z-man has the right philosophy. Pull the first spawn & raise it artificially, and after that let them practice on their own. I do believe that we can have better success in larger aquariums with large groups of the same species. Competition for territories, mates, etc. tends to stimulate the fish's parental instinct. I've always found that boredom causes me to eat more. It is probably the same for fish. Too many external disturbances & not enough competition probably lead to most spawning losses.

 

[nightowl1350]

It will depend on if you want to raise them and the pairs won't stop eating eggs.

I would love to see my fish parent raise....but they never do Yes I have pulled spanws, but I'm not sure if the abilitly to raise a spawn is leared or not.

My female blue ram was parent raised and so was her original mate.....I know the person who raised them and got them directly from them.

They would spawn and eat the eggs during the night with dither fish in the tank, and with out dither fish. I pulled and raised a spawn and one of the males wast outstanding, bigger and nicer than the Dad so I paired him up with Mom.

The young male has taken care of the eggs with the spawns I've left in with the new pair, but he seems to eat them at wiggler stage So far he hasn't got past this point, but his parents ate the eggs withing about 2 hours of them beeing layed for over 6 months before I pulled a spawn.

I don't think it is all a learned process...they must have the instinct as well. This male protected eggs layed in the grow out tank with 20 siblings and 3 BN plecos for about 24 hours and it was their first spawn.

 

[Roach]

Mike raised a good point. I have experienced quite a few lost spawns, I think mainly because I disturbed the tank. Always trying to get a view of the eggs or wrigglers and the mother feels threatened and GULP!
But it is hard not to do if you want to see the fish and that's why we have them in the first place I suppose

 

[apistoireland]

All my wildcaught fish never caused me any trouble. Some of them have eaten their first couple of spawns but did perfectly OK after that. I do believe that this behaviour is passed on from their parents.
Or has anybody ever had a pair of rams bred in South East Asia that did not eat their spawn? I haven't.
However, get them from a breeder who lets the parents raise the fry and you will not have that problem. Fry raised by their parents tend to grow faster as well.

 

[lab]

There are quite a few factors that could influence here, but I also believe that you can actually breed the brood care out of a strain of fish (like Asian rams e.g.).
I don't think that it is learned behavior. If you pull the eggs from a couple that are able to raise their fry, I still think the offspring would perform well. I have never done this though. It is not normally what you do with good parents, I guess.
I have a mate who is performing an experiment on this particular subject at Copenhagen University. His results might tell us some more. He is using Cryptoheros sp. "Honduran red points".

 

[Roach]

Be interested to know the results if or when he gets them

 

[lab]

Be interested to know the results if or when he gets them

Me to. I will try to keep it in mind. I am not sure when he is done though.