Info on 'sneaker' males

[Justmeingardner]

Can/will a sneaker male assume female brood coloration? I have a female (?) who colors up nicely, enters a cave, chasing tetras away, then leaves cave to enter another cave on other side of tank, then returns to first cave. She doesn't spend much time at all in second cave.

This is the third time she/he has assumed brood coloration, but no fry. I'm figuring she ate the eggs, but am a bit puzzled by her behavior. The male harasses her badly, despite having lots of hiding places he cannot get into, she often stays in places she prefers but that he can bother her in.

She was nearly black for last couple days. I put in tank divider, but somehow he circumnavigated it...twice. I've been feeding live brine shrimp for a couple of days to fry and this tank received the surplus Did major water change today and here she/he goes again! In case it has any bearing at all, the pair are fairly young Apistogamma hongsloi 'rostrich' from the Czech Republic, and the male harassed his first mate to death a few months ago before I was able to rescue her. Any thoughts?

 

[MickeM]

Hi...

I think you have got a female that is looking for a 2nd cave to put her wrigglers in..
Many Apisto-females move the eggs/wrigglers to a new cave/place when they start to hatch/wriggle..
Her color+behaviour indicates this...Is she more thin/slim around her belly than 2-4 days ago?? ( the eggs may have been layed/deposited..)
The fry can not swim until after 8-10 days in a normal Apisto-situation like this.., but the Apisto-females are often veeery good/aggressive/protective mothers!!

And if this is your situation....

Unfortunately ...(?) you may have triggered new spawning-behaviours from the male by changing some water.. !!??

My experience with quite" pH neutral Apistos" (accepting pH 6-7 for reproducing) is that they often tend to spawn after the
kH/temp/EC (Electric conductivity) or the TDS has been lowered in the water!!
This seems to be a prooven fact in cases with several tropical "knife-fishes"/"Elephant-nose-fishes" ( Eigenmannia sp.+ Pollimyrus isidori +
Mormyrus rume proboscirostris ) !!,,

(It may also be some other parameters that kickstart this behaviour!!?..Oxygene in the water or else..?)

If the female is guarding eggs/fry already..., she will not be ready to spawn again, and then she will still "request" the male to continue to support the care for their offspring...(guarding their territory) .. Which he, in this situation, is probably not showing to her ..( since some "hormones" seems to make him focus on physical reproduction and therefore being very excited in his manner!!!)
This can create a clash in focus between the two ... leading to a rough battle!! and if disaster strikes.. maybe loss of eggs/fry too!!??
I have witnessed several severe fights between male/female in these cases, so I recommend Apisto-keepers not to do any changes to the water-chemistry if they already have eggs/wrigglers/fry!!
I always wait 2-3 weeks before doing anything to the water... and sometimes longer than this..
But you may do veeery small changes and then do it more regular, and in this way not change the parameters in a sudden way!!!
That sometimes/ ought to work OK!!
In my experience.. changes of 1-5% of the total water-volume may already be too much..
Their bodies seems to "feel"/register/react to the difference/change in the water-chemistry..!!

/Micke

 

[MickeM]

By the way..!!

I also forgot to mention one key-factor(?) that is often referred to when breeding/keeping fishes.. the amount of NO2- and NO3- (negatively charged nitrite/nitrate).

Many substances/chemicals of restproducts build up/accumulates in a tank during time..and if not reduced(eaten) by bacterias/snails/others or removed out of the tank(waterchanges) or by chemical absorption/reactions in the tank/system..(plants and else..), it will inpact many of these parameters..
And there will, in that aspect , most often be larger differences before/after "the change".. if you are making a waterchange in a "heavily loaded" tank compared to a newly started/set-up tank..or in tank with less restproducts (few fishes-less feeding)
(If one Aquarist will take a look in the sand/gravel/filter , he/she may guess the situation.. BUT!!, With that being said, a "loaded" tank may not automatically contain more "bad" substances that are negative for the fishes... at least not if you only control the parameters in the free water-column!!) Most of the times you can see that , just by optical checking your fishes!!

..and also... if I would have been present at the lecture/speech in the link.. I would have been asking a lot of questions regarding
the chemical analyses of the water that they(Frank Kirschbaum + others) were using in their experiments..

 

[Justmeingardner]

Thank you MickeM for all the insights and video, which I don't have time to watch this morning, but will certainly do later! I think you are right, she is a female, and for the first time, the male is being kept at bay. He is not harassing her at all. She seems rather frantic when swimming to other cave (a very nervous mom-to-be). Am wondering should I move second cave a little closer to where eggs are?

Yes, I'm sure the combination of water change + live brine shrimp was the trigger, and the tank was not the cleanest. I had been carrying a bucket up a flight of stairs to service 7 tanks until back gave out. Just yesterday, my Python arrived, so I expect to keep up with water changes better now. That being said, I think I have "magic" water...lol.

I haven't kept fish in over 20 years and not Apistos until this April. Since April, I have spawned A. agassizi, A. borelli, A. sp. pebas 'morado', now A. hongsloi 'rostrich' and looks like brand new A. macmasteri have eggs as well. Good stock, good food, clean water (for the most part). The only Apisto I've kept that I couldn't induce to spawn was A. bitaeniata 'Rio Napo' WC. Waiting for a male A. bitaeniata 'Shishita' to try again with that species (these are tank-raised).

I'm learning, and I thank you and others so much for sharing your experience, and for being patient with a "noob",

 

[MickeM]

I don`t think you will have to move the cave.. Just let her take the decision what to do..
Sometimes they may get disturbed by too much human interference.. when guarding eggs or fry..
They usually prepare/dig out some sand if they want to use the new cave..
And sometimes they choose rather open places for the eggs/wrigglers too.... On a root, or just in a pit alongside a plant or a rock..
..and as you say.. in order to bring up what in the nature, sometimes, might be their only fry/big investment.. they usually act pretty nervous/aggressive..

OK.. I often keep my tanks without punctiliously waterchanges.. I like to see the plants, snails and bacteria to do "their work" too..
But you certainly must have done some things correct with that "magic water".. resulting in all the Apistos spawning..

 

[Robi]

My (also Check/captive) Hongsloi 2 male harassed the female just like yours, until she came out with fry and started taking care of them. At that point he stopped being a jerk and has turned to be more supportive, spawns when the female is up to it, then leaves her alone. Pretty much now the female is the boss. Agree with MikeM (like always), they like to keep the fry out in the open, on the top of a cave or root, but don't worry she'll protect them pretty aggressively. Mine took couple of tries too, until she could retain the fry, so I think you're on a right track, good luck!

Robi

 

[Justmeingardner]

Thanks all. Still not sure what's happening, as she abandoned her first cave to take up residence in second one. Today is day 6 for both the hongsloi and macmasteri. Should see some wrigglers soon! I can't imagine the female hongsloi moving all of them so far across the tank, but maybe when tank lights are out and room lights still on. The macmasteri female on the other hand, seems to be tending to business, rarely venturing out to eat, and then not far. LOL...now where to put them if/when they've grown a bit. Have 2 20L with A. borelli and another with A. sp. pebas 'morado', all about 2 months old and not much tank space left, except for 2 10G. Will have to do for fry eventually until I can move some of the others.

Thanks again, MickeM and Robi, and have a great day!

 

[Justmeingardner]

As an update to the A. hongsloi and A. macmasteri, the female hongsloi again seems to have eaten the eggs. Whether or not they fungussed, I cannot tell. I was going to give her 5 chances to raise on her own, but now am thinking of 'artificially' hatching her next clutch. Going to get some alder cones (reputed to have properties to prevent fungus), and set the cave up in a spare 10G with aeration on the eggs. It's rather a shame, as the male is a beautiful fish. Will try to post a picture. Ah, keep running into 'there was a problem uploading your file'. Oh well.

On the other hand, the A. macmasteri female has brought out a very small brood, of what appears to be less than 10 fry. First time parents, and she has them so well-hidden, I don't even know where they are! I can guess by her appearance at feeding time, so have been squirting bbs in the very general vicinity. I can only hope she is spitting some of her food out for them, which appears to be the case. i say this mostly because she grabs food, then heads toward where I THINK the fry are.

 

[Robi]

Patience my friend... You are doing the right things... Usually the tank raised specimens take a couple of more tries before they finally they get it right.

 

[Justmeingardner]

Thanks Robi. I feel as though I am doing them right, but 4 tries now makes me wonder if eggs are getting fungus leading to her eating them? To see if it helps, I have some alder cones on the way, will try that approach next time. Or, maybe they are just infertile...sigh. THAT would be a disappointment.
Just has me wondering, as all my other apistos produced fry first try (most tank-bred), so I think my water parameters are healthy. I'll give her ONE MORE TRY...lol.

 

[Justmeingardner]

As an update to the A. hongsloi situation, about 2 weeks later, they spawned again. I received some alder cones the very day she developed brood coloration and went into cave for extended periods. Today, she has brought out what appears to be only 5 fry with yolk sacks still attached. Don't know if alder cones helped for sure, but out of 5 attempts, this is first time I've seen viable fry. Will try to feed them when time comes, and hopefully with such a small brood, she will be able to protect them from Loreto tetras in tank. So far, she has kept them and her hubby well at bay. And maybe next brood will be larger, giving a higher chance of survival. And check that, doesn't look like all five are alive. Think only 3 may be. Kind of sad, actually, but she is doing her best.

 

[MickeM]

BTW..
Another thing to look out for in a breeding tank..
Be sure to avoid having any nocturnal catfishes , "nasty"/resistant shrimps or Melanoides tuberculatus (sand- snail) with your spawning Apistos ..
I guess they all can be quite predatory on the eggs ..

 

[coralbandit]

Glad I found this thread.
I have 6 A.hongslio in a 55g to grow out.
I just got them over a week ago and they are aprox.1 inch...
Justme how old and what size are yours?
I will be following this for all the info...
Thanks to all for sharing...

 

[Justmeingardner]

Glad I found this thread.
I have 6 A.hongslio in a 55g to grow out.
I just got them over a week ago and they are aprox.1 inch...
Justme how old and what size are yours?
I will be following this for all the info...
Thanks to all for sharing...

Hi coral, currently my A. sp. pebas 'morado' and my A. borelli are about 4 months old and the largest are an inch. I THINK this is normal, maybe a little slow. I have stepped up my water changes, and about to split the pebas between a 30g long and the 20g long they are currently in. The largest started showing some color in fins a couple of weeks ago. They also seem to be starting a growth "spurt", and can't seem to keep them fed...lol.

My A. hongsloi, sadly, have still not managed more than 3 fry which didn't survive. I have about 7-10 newborn A. trifasciata now, though. They are all keeping me busy. As far as size and age on your hongsloi, I couldn't guess, mine arrived about 1/2 to 2/3 grown, and as I said, I haven't been successful breeding them. Good luck with yours, though!