Help deciding on which apistogramma to get

[Pseudotropheus]

Hi,

I am looking to get some apistogramma's to breed but would like to stay away from the inbreeding of some of the fish, even though they look really nice, such as the orange flash & triple red Cockatoo. I have breed these in the past but many off the offspring were deformed. (They are my forever home fish, but I really do not need any more of them)

I am looking for the better looking ones that can be found in the wild, but do not have to be wild.

I will keep one pair in a 40 gallon breeder and another pair (type) in a 20 long.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[MacZ]

Better looking is very subjective, but I think it's easiest to go by exclusion.

Out are (because they're very common, many domestic strains and easy to breed):
A. cacatuoides, A. borellii, A. agasssizii, A. macmasteri,
Grey zone (on their way to that status):
A. hongsloi, A. panduro, A. nijsseni, A. trifasciata

Everything else is not yet overbred. Also beware: There are strains of A. macmasteri sold as A. viejita. You rarely find true A. viejita, especially not in the standard trade.

 

[anewbie]

I think part of what you must consider is what condition you wish to keep the fishes. I.e, for example most people can breed cacatuoides in tap water but many species require low ph and very low tds to breed.

Also I think if you breed the fishes you should be willing to mix genetics (buy multiple unrelated fishes); this is more difficult with some of the specialized colour morphs.

I don't really breed fishes per sey but I allow them to breed - so i try to buy the male and female from different sources in hope for better genetic mix.

 

[MacZ]

Also I think if you breed the fishes you should be willing to mix genetics (buy multiple unrelated fishes); this is more difficult with some of the specialized colour morphs.

Addition to that:
There is multiplication/propagation, which is what most people know as breeding. This is just 2 fish make more fish. Genetics are irrelevant to most people doing that.
And then there is breeding as in linebreeding, which very much looks at genetics, but often uses inbreeding to bring forward certain characteristics.

Fish like domestic A. cacatuoides are a result of both. First targeted linebreeding, followed by endless copy-paste.

 

[anewbie]

Addition to that:
There is multiplication/propagation, which is what most people know as breeding. This is just 2 fish make more fish. Genetics are irrelevant to most people doing that.
And then there is breeding as in linebreeding, which very much looks at genetics, but often uses inbreeding to bring forward certain characteristics.

Fish like domestic A. cacatuoides are a result of both. First targeted linebreeding, followed by endless copy-paste.

Yes - but this is a question - does it not help to improve the hardy ness of the fish to mix genetics from unrelated fishes as oppose to just breeding brother and sister ?

 

[Ben Rhau]

Yes - but this is a question - does it not help to improve the hardy ness of the fish to mix genetics from unrelated fishes as oppose to just breeding brother and sister ?

It’s always great to have unrelated pairs (and some breeders in fact sell them that way). But it’s not always possible. They can go 4-5 generations, sometimes more before they need to be outcrossed.

 

[Mike Wise]

I personally have gotten beyond 'breed and release' and never was interested in breeding for money. Now I am a species maintenance breeder. I just keep and breed 4 apisto species rare in the hobby. Three are from known localities that either I or the original collector collected themselves. I try to carefully select breeders and cull those not exactly like the wild form. For example, all of my A. wolli female breeders must have only 1 lateral spot - and 1 on both sides. Culled females will show 0 lateral spots or only 1 on one side. Males need to be the same in color and finnage as the wild specimens that I collected in 2012. I brought back 6 specimens and have been carefully crossing their offspring for almost 10 years without noticeable deterioration in quality from the original wild stock. This is proper 'husbandry', sadly not often seen in the hobby anymore.

 

[MacZ]

I personally have gotten beyond 'breed and release' and never was interested in breeding for money. Now I am a species maintenance breeder. I just keep and breed 4 apisto species rare in the hobby. Three are from known localities that either I or the original collector collected themselves. I try to carefully select breeders and cull those not exactly like the wild form. For example, all of my A. wolli female breeders must have only 1 lateral spot - and 1 on both sides. Culled females will show 0 lateral spots or only 1 on one side. Males need to be the same in color and finnage as the wild specimens that I collected in 2012. I brought back 6 specimens and have been carefully crossing their offspring for almost 10 years without noticeable deterioration in quality from the original wild stock. This is proper 'husbandry', sadly not often seen in the hobby anymore.

That's how I learned it with Rift Lake cichlids back in the day.

 

[Pseudotropheus]

Thanks for the feedback