Have I Killed Them?

[Tom S]

Help. I think I may have killed some of my plants by using Flourish Excel.

When I first started my tank I planted some Italian Val. It did quite well, and spread around through runners and looked healthy. Over the past few months though, I noticed that some algae was moving in (I think it was hair algae) and the Val was starting to suffer. I did some research and found out that Excel is supposed to not only help plant growth, but also get rid of algae.

So the next time that I was at the LFS I picked up some Excel, a Java Fern, and some cuttings of Elodea. I got home, planted what I had bought and started using Excel. Within a couple days my algae problem had disappeared, but I noticed that my Val and Elodea were turning a dull yellow. The next day all the Val had 'fallen over', and was lying on the substrate. The day after that the Elodea was starting to shed leaves.

Figuring that something was up, I started doing some more research. I ended up on www.plantgeek.net, and tracked down my plants. According to them both Val and Elodea 'melt' when dosed with Excel! I immediately stopped using Excel.

My problem now is how do I get these plants to come back? I can now see a few strong green shoots coming up from the Val, but the Elodea looks pretty sad. There are a few green spots, but mostly yellow. Would I be better to take it out and replace it or to try to nurse it back to heath? Should I trim the parts that look dead or leave the on the plant? I need some advice.

 

[Bilbo]

Vallisneria spiralis is considered a noxious weed now in NZ and is illegal to buy or sell, we have lakes full of the stuff and they cant seem to kill it, the stuff will almost grow in turpentine so I think it probably be ok with a bit of flourish.

The Canadian Elodea (Elodea canadensis) is pretty tough to kill as well I would have thought. Not quite on the banned list here but probably should be, I think it is in alot of Australia. Grows wild everywhere.

 

[Mike Wise]

What kind of lighting do you have? You may need to replace the old lamps.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Excel is based on "Glutaraldehyde" - CH2(CH2CHO)2 it is both a photosynthesis precursor and an algaecide.

No-one is quite sure why, or how, it works as a carbon source in photosynthesis, but it does work, and assuming neither light or nutrients are limiting it will enhance plant growth.

However it is a very effective disinfectant and moderately toxic compound' and. I wouldn't let it anywhere near the tank.

Your Vallis will recover from the underground rhizomes, the Elodea probably won't.

If you grow plants like Java Fern, Java moss (and other mosses), Cryptocoryne spp., the Smaller Amazon Swords (Echinodorus), Anubias, Ceratopteris and some floaters like Pistia, Salvinia or Limnobium, you shouldn't need to add any additional CO2 or plant nutrients (you may find that eventually you will need to add small amounts of these).

cheers Darrel

 

[Tom S]

What kind of lighting do you have? You may need to replace the old lamps.

Mike,

Right now I have the bulb in that came with the hood. It is about 1/2 a year old, so it may be time for a replacement. I have actually been toying with the idea of building a canopy to use some LED (www.panopticslighting.com) light tubes that I have access to through work. They are easy to install, area available in different colours and lengths, and can be dimmed.

However it is a very effective disinfectant and moderately toxic compound' and. I wouldn't let it anywhere near the tank.

Darrel,

The Flourish did a great job removing the problem algae, but then went on to kill my plants. I think that from now on I will look for other ways to stop algae.

 

[Brilliant]

Certain plants like vals do not like excel. Google search will provide many examples of excel melting vals.

My vals grow without co2 in low wattage tank.

I think that excel is a crutch. It will remove algae but the problem still exists. I dont mean to sound harsh.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think that excel is a crutch. It will remove algae but the problem still exists.

I'd tend to agree, I don't look on algae as a problem, but as a totally natural part of the aquarium, just think of it as "biofilm", it is full of all sorts of interesting things and helps with tank stability and particularly for fry survival.

I think a lot of us keep low tech. tanks, where we change the water regularly but otherwise do very little gardening or tank "maintenance".

Have a look here:
<http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/devbio.shtml>

and

<http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php>

cheers Darrel

 

[geeks_15]

Algae is part of having a planted tank. But algae can be minimized if everything (light, CO2, available nutrients) is kept in balance. This is easier said than done, but working toward a balance is the best long term approach. Excel and other "short cuts" won't usually work long term. Excel doesn't address the imbalance that is causing the algae.

Be patient and work toward harmony and your problems will resolve themselves. Zen baby.

 

[bigbird]

I must also state that I agree with a lot of the comments. Algae is a part of every tank and you must learn how to juggle with the whole balance of the tank, in order not to have a huge outbreak. Algae in my view forms when there is either too little light and too much food or nutrients left in the water. To find a balance takes time and time and time. Each tank is different. In my 500liter tank, algae is a small part of the tank, however I only feed every two days, change 30% of the water a week, at the same time wash out the filter and have found that using floating plants greatly reduces the chance of algae ( 1 because it reduces the light and 2 because it absorbes nutrients ) In all of my 7 tanks I use this method and am successful. You Val will survive this ordeal , however believe the elodea is in plant heaven. Also my tip, do not use chemicals to try and fix this natural balance, but instead use your tank to solve its own problems. cheers jk

 

[Tom S]

Thanks for all the advice. You don't sound harsh, you just speak the truth.

The Elodea is completely gone, and I pulled up what was left of the Val last night while cleaning up after the Elodea (it was coming back, but I decided I want something more like the Elodea, I could tell the inhabitants enjoyed the mass of vegetation).

Going to have to do some more research into how to properly balance my aquarium's system. I guess a good start would be daily parameter testing, but does anyone else have a recommendation of some articles that I could work off of?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I want something more like the Elodea, I could tell the inhabitants enjoyed the mass of vegetation).

Certainly true, I'd put in a good word for Java (or any other) moss and Ceratopteris (Indian Fern).

I'd start with Apistobob's web pages, Bob is a member here, and full of good advice. <http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php>

Also all the other pages from Brett, the "Skeptical Aquarist", (use the nav. bar on the left) <http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/biofilm/devbio.shtml> sound science and very readable.

Have a look at this blog as well, it has a link to Diana Walstad's book, which is well worth buying. http://www.tuncalik.com/2010/01/indoor-plants-for-water-purification-in-aquariums/

There are also "Apistomaster" (Larry is another member here) he tends to post a lot more on "Planet Catfish", but his posts are equally applicable to either fish. Have a search for "Apistomaster" in "S.A. catfish Loricariidae" & "tanktalk"
<[URL="http://www.planetcatfish.com/]http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/[/URL]>.

cheers Darrel

 

[geeks_15]

The 3 basic components of light, CO2, and nutrients are key.

Based on what you've posted with a single flourescent bulb, the limiting factor on your tank is light.

The plant growth is limited because there is a small intensity of light. The plants won't take up nutrients very quickly (their growth is limited by light). Algae can grow in the lower light conditions with an excess of nutrients to use. CO2 is supplied by detritus unless CO2 is injected.

The easiest thing to do is to limit available nutrients by not overfeeding and by performing regular water changes. Also don't leave the light on for more than about 10 hours. A longer lighting period will not make up for the low light intensity. In this scenario, choosing plants that will succeed is key. Try anubias sp, java fern, java moss, and crypts.

If you want to go the other way, you can increase the amount of light (more bulbs, or higher intensity bulbs). This can work, but it is easy to swing the balance to too much light which will also lead to algae. Then nutrients and CO2 can be the limiting factors. If you want a challenge and the ability to grow many more varieties of plants and thicker more lush plants you can go this route. But be prepared for headaches, because it takes some practice and trial and error.

Adding CO2 is very helpful and can make attaining a balance easier. DIY CO2 is a pain and often inconsistent. Pressurized CO2 is fantastic, but expensive.

Which ever way you decide to go Diane Walsted's book is fantastic and I highly recommend it.

 

[Brilliant]

Thanks for all the advice. You don't sound harsh, you just speak the truth.

The Elodea is completely gone, and I pulled up what was left of the Val last night while cleaning up after the Elodea (it was coming back, but I decided I want something more like the Elodea, I could tell the inhabitants enjoyed the mass of vegetation).

Going to have to do some more research into how to properly balance my aquarium's system. I guess a good start would be daily parameter testing, but does anyone else have a recommendation of some articles that I could work off of?

OK, good.

Sorry you lost the plants. Learn from the experience.

On my site I'm writing an article The Hierarchy of Plant Needs . I am not a scientist just another hobbyist. Hopefully this article helps you understand a bit more about the workings of the planted tank. Once you understand the tank and what is going on you can balance it out.

The source of most nuisance algae is too much light. Even a long duration causes certain algae. I always "reset" by making my light duration shorter. 1-3 hours a day for high light 5-6 for low light. Then work up from there once I have whatever issue under control.

 

[geeks_15]

The source of most nuisance algae is too much light. Even a long duration causes certain algae.

Too much light shouldn't be the problem with a single fluorescent bulb, unless the light is on for more than 10 hours. Don't leave the light on for more than about 10 hours. A longer lighting period will not make up for the low light intensity.