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Generalist fish keeper looking to get better with soft water dwarf cichlids.

Rowdy Hotel

New Member
Messages
21
I've been keeping fish for as long as I can remember but have always been somewhat of a generalist. I've kept and bred various cichlids, wild livebearers, and cyprinids. I've had success with the more common apistos in the past such as hobby strains of cacatuoides, basically any fish which will breed in my tap water. I haven't had my water tested in years but the last time I did it was 7.2-7.4 , 75-125 ppm according to those quick dip testing strips. I'm sure some of the hardier strains will breed in this, but I've gotten a few apistogramma in the past few weeks that I don't think can breed in this and am looking to get some taenacara soon which also need really soft water. I've been looking online for RO/DI kits but am a little confused as to what exactly I need. I will be buying a conductivity meter as it seems to be the preferred method of measuring hardness and all the collecting trip articles I've been reading have been giving the collecting site's conductivity. I've been wondering what the cheapest RO/DI kit I can get away with is. Is a 1 micron sediment filter a lot better than a 5 micron sediment filter? What about 1 or 5 micron carbon filter blocks? Is a DI even necessary?
 

hedylogus

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
48
Location
PGH, PA
I went thru this not long ago when I finally decided to make the plunge. My experience was that everyone had a different opinion.....so here's mine:

(1) don't buy based on cost (get whatever fits your needs)
(2) a 4-stage is nice...but a 3-stage works just fine
(3) DI not required unless you're really striving for zero conductivity
(4) the smaller the filter size the better the output water quality, but also the quicker it will clog and need replaced
(5) match the carbon filter size to the sediment filter size (or last stage sediment filter)
 

Rowdy Hotel

New Member
Messages
21
I went thru this not long ago when I finally decided to make the plunge. My experience was that everyone had a different opinion.....so here's mine:

(1) don't buy based on cost (get whatever fits your needs)
(2) a 4-stage is nice...but a 3-stage works just fine
(3) DI not required unless you're really striving for zero conductivity
(4) the smaller the filter size the better the output water quality, but also the quicker it will clog and need replaced
(5) match the carbon filter size to the sediment filter size (or last stage sediment filter)

Thanks! That's exactly how I was feeling, everyone has their own opinion.

I'm not necessarily trying to cheap out and cut as many corners as possible, but if 5 micron filter does a good enough job to get the softest water fish to breed, why pay extra for a 1 micron which will need more frequent replacements. It is possible to design your own systems on the sites, but I'm not too sure how to put one together. I was planning on doing the following: 1st stage=5 micron sediment, 2nd stage=1 micron sediment, 3rd stage=1 micron carbon block.

Is it true that the more GPD they produce the less efficient the RO unit is?

I was thinking of just going with this one of these models : http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/showproducts.asp?Category=164&Sub=103
 

Rowdy Hotel

New Member
Messages
21
I've also noticed that none of the small streams that our blackwater dwarfs come from appear to have any vegetation growing in them. Is this because very soft acidic water isn't good for growing aquatic plants? All the tanks I keep now are heavily planted tanks using the Walstad methods, basically, I use the plants as filters. What's the softest most acidic water one can use for good plant growth? Just trying to cut down on the need for water changes.
 

Mike Wise

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5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Just trying to cut down on the need for water changes.

IMHO not a good idea. There are some pollutants that aren't organic and not assimilated by plants. Regular water changes are more important than quality food. Blackwater streams by their nature are extremely soft and carry little in the way of nutrients. The nutrient load is so low that not only plants but bacteria and the insect larvae that live on them don't do well in true blackwater biotopes. That's one advantage of collecting in blackwater, many fewer mosquitos.
 

hedylogus

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
48
Location
PGH, PA
I was planning on doing the following: 1st stage=5 micron sediment, 2nd stage=1 micron sediment, 3rd stage=1 micron carbon block.

just remember, based on your layout above, you'll need to order a 4-stage (the 4th stage being your RO membrane).....if indeed you're looking for a RO filter. i've heard good things about buckeye......i personally ordered from bulkreefsupply.

Is it true that the more GPD they produce the less efficient the RO unit is?

not necessarily.....based on my previous research, efficiency is determined by the quality of the membrane, the quality of the incoming water, and the pressure. large GPD systems that require higher pressure will often have a higher efficiency.
 

Rowdy Hotel

New Member
Messages
21
Larger GPD systems have larger R/O membranes, don't they?

IMHO not a good idea. There are some pollutants that aren't organic and not assimilated by plants. Regular water changes are more important than quality food. Blackwater streams by their nature are extremely soft and carry little in the way of nutrients. The nutrient load is so low that not only plants but bacteria and the insect larvae that live on them don't do well in true blackwater biotopes. That's one advantage of collecting in blackwater, many fewer mosquitos.

Understood then, no cutting corners with water changes allowed. How exactly does lowering pH with phosphoric acid work? I've heard it mentioned on the site numerous times but I had never considered lowering pH with anything other than leaves and peat moss.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
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11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Lowering pH with H2PO4 occurs by increasing the number of H+ ions in the water. The problem with this method is that it also increases the electrical conductivity of the water. Increased e.c. adversely affects many blackwater species breeding success. Personally, I'd stick to organic acids (from peat and leaves) and softer water.
 

Mike Wise

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5 Year Member
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Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
If the permeability differed, then the amount of minerals removed with differ, too. A larger, membrane under similar pressure, simply allows more water/hour to pass through.
 

hedylogus

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
48
Location
PGH, PA
If the permeability differed, then the amount of minerals removed with differ, too. A larger, membrane under similar pressure, simply allows more water/hour to pass through.

sounds like you are referring to the efficiency of the actual ro membrane itself with respect to removing impurities, whereas i'm referring to the efficiency of the ro system as whole with respect to the creation of ro water vs waste water. i agree with your point.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
We had a very similar thread about a year ago ("RO Water Open to Debate!"<http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/ro-water-open-to-debate.11624/#post-62912>) that the OP may not have seen. This thread covers RO system efficiency, and also looks at the relationship between the CO2/Carbonate equilibrium, pH and TDS.

As a quick answer, in S. American terms 100ppm TDS is "saltier" than the majority of water, which often has TDS values in the range 0 -10 ppm TDS.

In soft water pH is inherently unstable, and the lowering of PH by injecting CO2 is not the same as lowering the pH by altering the H+ donor (acid)/H+ acceptor (alkali) ratio.

There is discussion of this in the linked thread.

cheers Darrel
 

Simon Morgan

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
160
Location
Cambridge, UK
It's like deja vu all over again Darrel!
I know that these fish come from extremely soft water, but is it really necessary in captivity? I bred F1 A. irinidae in about 60ppm but most Apistos (IME) spawn in about 150ppm. Is it necessary to reduce the hardness to <20ppm?
 

Mike Wise

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5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
It really depends on the species. A. sp. Miuá, for example, requires a pH<5 and almost no hardness to breed successfully. By "to breed successfully" I mean producing more than 6 fry to juvenile size. Koslowski repeatedly bred this fish in moderately soft water (~150ppm) at pH4.5. As I recall, he never got more than 1 or 2 fry to hatch and most didn't survive for very long.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Peter, I'm not sure about Taeniacara, and my suspicion is that for a lot of the more unusual species black water species we just don't know. We did have a bit of a discussion about pH, DOC and conductivity in Dave Soares "ok" thread, but again I'm not sure with any real resolution. You may find Ted's comments of particular interest. <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/ok.12048/>

Most of the successful breeders (Ste, Microman, Mike, Tom C, Ruki, etc) use very soft and acid water, so are unlikely to find the tolerances of the species they keep. The fact that a fish like A. baenschi has become reasonably wide spread in the UK hobby, suggests to be that it has wider tolerances. Conversely that fact that you are not seeing many hobby bred fish of other similar species (like A. nijsseni) makes me suspect they need softer, more acid water.

Personally the only black water I've ever kept was Dicrossus filamentosus, and I never had any success with them, although the fish were healthy, showed good fin extension and lived a relatively long time. The D. maculatus pair I have at the moment (hopefully less demanding of very soft water) are doing really well and have spawned, but again I've ended up with no fry. I'll ignore pH, but it will certainly be above pH7 during the day (it is a planted tank) and conductivity about 100 microS (100% rain-water).

Both Mark and Steve bred Taeniacara successfully in the UK a few years ago.
<http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/breeding-taeniacara-candidi-at-last.7718/>.
So they might be able to add some comments.

cheers Darrel
 

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