Fry Preventative Medication

[xSparkleZ]

Years ago before I quit the hobby, we had more access to medication at the LFS.
Seems everything is locked down and have limited access to medication now and am leaning towards Seachem Paraguard.

I was wondering how young others have administered Paraguard to Fry for preventative measures.
Any other generic all-in-one medication they use in Canada?

 

[Apistoguy52]

Potassium permanganate and salt for the win IMO

 

[xSparkleZ]

I just went down a rabbit hole of google searches.

Do you follow a similar process to this video?

 

[Apistoguy52]

I just went down a rabbit hole of google searches.

Do you follow a similar process to this video?

Personally, no. Gabe’s weekly use seems a bit excessive/bandaid-ish to me. Prophylactic/quarantine use, and occasional use for bacterial infection (external). 2ppm/L over 4 hours works better than “fancy meds” at 10x the price

 

[xSparkleZ]

Personally, no. Gabe’s weekly use seems a bit excessive/bandaid-ish to me. Prophylactic/quarantine use, and occasional use for bacterial infection (external). 2ppm/L over 4 hours works better than “fancy meds” at 10x the price

So, administer 2 PPM/L for 4-hours then dose Hydrogen Peroxide or just water change it out?

I'll definetly be doing it in my quarantine tanks where I usually keep them after two-weeks with the mother.

 

[Apistoguy52]

So, administer 2 PPM/L for 4-hours then dose Hydrogen Peroxide or just water change it out?

I'll definetly be doing it in my quarantine tanks where I usually keep them after two-weeks with the mother.

50% WC, dose 2mg/L for 4 hours. Hydrogen peroxide at the conclusion of 4 hours. Salt 1TBSP/5 gallons to stimulate some post treatment slime/mucus production.

 

[xSparkleZ]

50% WC, dose 2mg/L for 4 hours. Hydrogen peroxide at the conclusion of 4 hours. Salt 1TBSP/5 gallons to stimulate some post treatment slime/mucus production.

How much Hydrogen Peroxide per L?
I guess treating this once per batch of fry would suffice?
What age/week do you treat your fry?

 

[MacZ]

My I ask what you want to achieve with such treatments?

Most important is to have healthy breeders, free of parasites, then the offspring never have to be treated unless you introduce something.

When I still bred fish myself, salt was the absolute maximum. But that was for Malawis and Tanganyikans to which salt has the same immune boosting effect as humic substances for softwater fish. So salt makes sense to me, but H2O2 and KMnO4 are quite aggressive in my opinion and simply overkill. Sure, the stuff works when indicated, but otherwise I don't see a point in the use.

At the fishroom I'm helping out in the past years, meds are only used in quarantine and if something crops up.
The owner and I agree that treating otherwise healthy fry breeds resistances in all kinds of pathogens and opportunistic bacteria, making a treatment in case something actually happens more difficult and the use of harder meds necessary.
Fish in our quarantine get a parasite treatment for intestinal parasites and rarely salt if they show skin irritations that don't fit the usual skin parasites. Everything else is only treated if it shows up. No further med prophylaxis. The quarantine rack also has several 40 Watt UV-sterilizers since November.

For the breeding racks and growouts we rather bet on non-medication preventative measures like a strict maintenance regimen, soft water, humic substances, extra vitamins and the like.

But anyway, in all the years I've been in the trade and the hobby, the fish destined to be sold were not treated before sale let alone to keep the yield high. We rather sold smaller batches of fish with a healthy immune system than big batches with a tendency to fall for certain things. Quality before quantity and IMO quality means not treated with anything unnecessary.

 

[MacZ]

Personally, no. Gabe’s weekly use seems a bit excessive/bandaid-ish to me. Prophylactic/quarantine use, and occasional use for bacterial infection (external).

Just a TINY bit excessive. I wouldn't buy fish from them. On the other hand... mass produced copy-paste genetics, oversized facilities and a pressure to sell alive are what pushes you there. That farm barely has a choice since they maneuvered themselves there with there overall concept.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I was wondering how young others have administered Paraguard to Fry for preventative measures.

I wouldn't use anything as prophylactic, I'd give them a good habitat, good water, a lot of moss and plenty of live food, it has always worked for me <"https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/fry-tank-setup.12123/#post-66043"> & <"https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/...f-cacatuoides-live-together.13141/#post-71070">.

Other than fry on fry aggression, I'd keep an eye out for "Velvet Disease" (Piscinoodinium), I've never suffered from it, but I know it can be an issue <"https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/...ck-pale-white-scales.25040/page-2#post-121828">.

Potassium permanganate and salt for the win

I'll be honest I can't see any use for either of them. Salt (NaCl) kills all your plants, and potassium permanganate (KMnO4) is a really strong oxidising agent.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Other than fry on fry aggression, I'd keep an eye out for "Velvet Disease" (Piscinoodinium), I've never suffered from it, but I know it can be an issue

In my opinion only a problem if monitoring in quarantine failed.

 

[Apistoguy52]

Other than fry on fry aggression, I'd keep an eye out for "Velvet Disease" (Piscinoodinium), I've never suffered from it, but I know it can be an issue

oodinium is nasty stuff. PP and salt is 100% not the solution if that’s the case. Buffer the water way up, raise the pH way up, and copper for the cure

 

[Mike Wise]

Years ago before I quit the hobby, we had more access to medication at the LFS.
Seems everything is locked down and have limited access to medication now and am leaning towards Seachem Paraguard.

Antibiotics are becoming more rarely accessible because they have been abused by over use (scatter shot approach). The EU has basically banned them unless prescribed by a veteranarian. I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually occurs in North America too. Prophylactic antibiotics are a bad ideas. Like Darrel, I only medicate if I know what the problem is. Otherwise good water quality and habitat are more effective than playing 'chemistry set' with your fish.

 

[xSparkleZ]

I guess there are mixed views on this now.

In the past, I usually saw massive fry deaths around the 4-week mark and mitigated that with treating them around that time.

Also, I just picked up a different line of Cacatuoides to diversify my gene pool and even though they have been in quarantine for about a month, I typically found the first couple of spawns still resulted in massive fry deaths.

I usually see them flashing, dragging their stomachs across the bottom, and/or staying right beneath the water surface while refusing to eat live BBS around the 3-week mark.

I was thinking to apply some preventative medication to avoid experiencing that again this time around.

 

[MacZ]

Also, I just picked up a different line of Cacatuoides to diversify my gene pool and even though they have been in quarantine for about a month, I typically found the first couple of spawns still resulted in massive fry deaths.

Domestic A. cacatuoides? Those are so overbred, the genetics determine a good chunk of deaths. No matter what different strains you cross in.

I usually see them flashing, dragging their stomachs across the bottom, and/or staying right beneath the water surface while refusing to eat live BBS around the 3-week mark.

Which is proving my point above partially. Stomach sliders are a genetic problem.
Staying at the surface points towards bacteria, which in turn points towards immune weakness.
Flashing can be anything.

I was thinking to apply some preventative medication to avoid experiencing that again this time around.

I don't think this will help you.

May I ask what stocking densities you keep in your growouts? (Number, volume, dimensions) What's your maintenance regimen?

But frankly I suspect most of the problems are due to reasons barely anyone has a hold on.

 

[xSparkleZ]

Domestic A. cacatuoides? Those are so overbred, the genetics determine a good chunk of deaths. No matter what different strains you cross in.

Domestic strain. I used to breed wild back in the day, but it seems it's harder to find and/or the demand of Apistogramma has dropped since then.
So, I am only focusing on Super Red Cacatuoides for now.

Which is proving my point above partially. Stomach sliders are a genetic problem.
Staying at the surface points towards bacteria, which in turn points towards immune weakness.
Flashing can be anything.

This is very helpful. I tended to group those symptoms into one.
Loss of appetite is the worst because that's when I know they have probably 24-48 hours before they die.
Sometimes I see them mouth the live BBS but it's frustrating when they spit it right out again.

May I ask what stocking densities you keep in your growouts? (Number, volume, dimensions) What's your maintenance regimen?

But frankly I suspect most of the problems are due to reasons barely anyone has a hold on.

In respect to stocking density, it varies and is dependent on how many spawns happen during the month, but I have various 10-gallon tanks for those a month to two months old, then slowly transition them to a 20-gallon long, and then their final grow out until around 6-months is a 40-gallon breeder.
I usually cull alot of fry while transitioning them to the next size tank and remove ones I see that have possible defects - incomplete lateral bands, etc.
Throughout each of the phases, I average about two fry per gallon of water.

Last month, I experimented with artificially hatching a clutch of eggs and wanted to see how they would do in a hanging breeder box, so I have a couple of them turning out nicely for now.
I definetly enjoy having them with the female for 2-weeks before removing them though compared to the breeder box, so I'll probably stick to what I have done thus far.

In terms of maintenance regime, I perform weekly water changes around 33% of tank volume.
I use water that has been temperature matched to all of my tanks which are set to 26C and has been aged and aerated for a week.
I prepare my batch of aged water after each weekly water change to ensure it is ready for the following week.

All tanks have mature bio-filters that has been active for more than a year and water is tested weekly which show no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates.
All tanks have leaf litter and no submerged plants, I just use alot of duckweed and frogbit to keep the nitrates and algae clear.
Some tanks have balls of christmas moss though.

As all of my tanks have floating plants covering the entire water surface, I dose Seachem flourish weekly.

I'm pretty particular on anything that goes into my tanks, so I even strain and rinse my live BBS in aged water three times through a coffee filter.

 

[MacZ]

Besides the fact that what you say really proves you have bad stock to begin with (not your fault, it's just the issue with these fish), I think I have found a problem. Several linked to each other to be precise.

In respect to stocking density, it varies and is dependent on how many spawns happen during the month, but I have various 10-gallon tanks for those a month to two months old, then slowly transition them to a 20-gallon long, and then their final grow out until around 6-months is a 40-gallon breeder.
[...]
Throughout each of the phases, I average about two fry per gallon of water.

In terms of maintenance regime, I perform weekly water changes around 33% of tank volume.
I use water that has been temperature matched to all of my tanks which are set to 26C and has been aged and aerated for a week.
I prepare my batch of aged water after each weekly water change to ensure it is ready for the following week.

Considering tank sizes and stocking densities, I'd do 2x 50% (or 3x 30%) waterchanges a week minimum in the 80 Liter and 1 to 1.5x 50% for the 160 Liters, and daily 20% for the 40 Liter tanks. The bigger the tank, the less waterchanges are needed, as you know. Cichlid fry tend to release hormons that stunt their siblings growth. Those hormons have to be removed. Also at the temperature their metabolism is quite fast. Another reason for more waterchanges.
I find the practice of ageing water quite esoteric. Unless it's chlorinated and you don't want to use dechlorinators this has basically no use.
Back in the day we were fortunate to live in a country where you only have chlorination in the tapwater when the main municipal pipes have been compromised. Here you can use straight up tap directly from the line. But we had stocking densities of 50-100 Mbuna fry per 200 Liter tank. 50% WC every 48 hours were the the norm. Nowerdays I do 100% RO, but that's for a single blackwater display biotope tank with a really low stocking density.

I usually cull alot of fry while transitioning them to the next size tank and remove ones I see that have possible defects - incomplete lateral bands, etc.

Good. If you didn't do this I'd probably tell you to. Stomach sliders, crippled ventral fins and extreme slack jaws (both also common in these strains) should be on the cull list too.

All tanks have mature bio-filters that has been active for more than a year and water is tested weekly which show no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrates.
All tanks have leaf litter and no submerged plants, I just use alot of duckweed and frogbit to keep the nitrates and algae clear.
Some tanks have balls of christmas moss though.

As all of my tanks have floating plants covering the entire water surface, I dose Seachem flourish weekly.

I'd probably either switch to (or just add) emersed plants like Epipremnum (aka Pothos) as a nitrogen absorber and forgo on the fertilizers. Those can also contain stuff that in too high doses may stunt growth and have other impact on the fishes development. Looking especially at the copper sulfate in the ingredient list of that stuff. Otherwise great practice, especially keeping leaf litter in the growouts.

So all in all I think I can narrow down most of your problems to the genepool and maintenance. Maintenance adjustments are easy. The genetic problems though... besides exchanging your stock for something less degenerate than domestic A. cacatuoides would probably be the way to go. I doubt crossing in another strain will do it. Crossing in wild type or even wild caught fish would eventually solve some of the genetic problems at least in the first generation, but also produce offspring that can't be sold as one or the other and which won't result in a stable new strain. Also some of the negative traits may stay hidden and only crop up again a generation later.

 

[xSparkleZ]

Besides the fact that what you say really proves you have bad stock to begin with (not your fault, it's just the issue with these fish), I think I have found a problem. Several linked to each other to be precise.



Considering tank sizes and stocking densities, I'd do 2x 50% (or 3x 30%) waterchanges a week minimum in the 80 Liter and 1 to 1.5x 50% for the 160 Liters, and daily 20% for the 40 Liter tanks. The bigger the tank, the less waterchanges are needed, as you know. Cichlid fry tend to release hormons that stunt their siblings growth. Those hormons have to be removed. Also at the temperature their metabolism is quite fast. Another reason for more waterchanges.
I find the practice of ageing water quite esoteric. Unless it's chlorinated and you don't want to use dechlorinators this has basically no use.
Back in the day we were fortunate to live in a country where you only have chlorination in the tapwater when the main municipal pipes have been compromised. Here you can use straight up tap directly from the line. But we had stocking densities of 50-100 Mbuna fry per 200 Liter tank. 50% WC every 48 hours were the the norm. Nowerdays I do 100% RO, but that's for a single blackwater display biotope tank with a really low stocking density.


Good. If you didn't do this I'd probably tell you to. Stomach sliders, crippled ventral fins and extreme slack jaws (both also common in these strains) should be on the cull list too.


I'd probably either switch to (or just add) emersed plants like Epipremnum (aka Pothos) as a nitrogen absorber and forgo on the fertilizers. Those can also contain stuff that in too high doses may stunt growth and have other impact on the fishes development. Looking especially at the copper sulfate in the ingredient list of that stuff. Otherwise great practice, especially keeping leaf litter in the growouts.

So all in all I think I can narrow down most of your problems to the genepool and maintenance. Maintenance adjustments are easy. The genetic problems though... besides exchanging your stock for something less degenerate than domestic A. cacatuoides would probably be the way to go. I doubt crossing in another strain will do it. Crossing in wild type or even wild caught fish would eventually solve some of the genetic problems at least in the first generation, but also produce offspring that can't be sold as one or the other and which won't result in a stable new strain. Also some of the negative traits may stay hidden and only crop up again a generation later.

Definetly an informative post.
Learned alot about the stomach sliders and the hormones they excret.

I'll implement the increased amount of water changes and monitor for a couple of weeks and see if I get higher survival rates.

The genetics are definitely an issue with some of my pairs.
I have one pair that seems to result in more deformities.

I had monsterra clippings growing out of my tanks but the low bioload in my tanks really started to inhibit growth of my floaters, so that's why I started to supplement fertilizers.