Finding bitaeniata female when male locality is kind of unknown

[Phil_1983]

Yes, that's what I meant to say with a wink.

You know what really annoys me? For every fish species I asked for a male only, I was told that they only sell pairs, even if there weren't any females left in the tank. This is really not understandable to me. Even some (hobbyist-)breeders told me that. I don't get it.

30 years ago, this was not the case, as far as I remember. I could walk into a store and get 1:4 without any problems. Sure, identification wasn't 100%. But where have all the female fish gone in the last years?

 

[MacZ]

Interestingly the idea of only keeping pairs is older than 30 years, why the trade moved to only selling them... I have no idea.

 

[anewbie]

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30 years ago, this was not the case, as far as I remember. I could walk into a store and get 1:4 without any problems. Sure, identification wasn't 100%. But where have all the female fish gone in the last years?

Are you talking domestic or wc; i would think 30 years ago they would have been mostly wc at least for dwarf cichild.

These days the market is less informed and the desire is more focus on beauty - though my sense of beauty seems a bit different than the typical mass producer. In any even as such it seems males are far more popular than females since behavior is secondary. Sadly (imho) this leads to some really bizarre fish forms like domestic parrot and eba fish as well as white cockatoo with red fins and 1000's of other example extending into glow fishes.

It seems the market is less interested in breeding or fish behavior as such.

 

[Phil_1983]

Are you talking domestic or wc; i would think 30 years ago they would have been mostly wc at least for dwarf cichild.

Yes, they were wc. I believe only german rams and cacatuoides were regularly available as domestic strains back then. But again, I was a teen then, so I might be wrong.


Unfortunately, what you are saying makes sense. It seems that fish behaviour is less important than I remember it being in the past.

 

[MacZ]

It seems the market is less interested in breeding or fish behavior as such.

While saying the behaviour is the reason. I remembered a bigger online trader used this to say why they only sold pairs, a few years ago.

And yes, breeding means less sales because people start supplying privately.

 

[Phil_1983]

And yes, breeding means less sales because people start supplying privately.

This does make sense. Doesn't make it better, but makes sense at least.

 

[MacZ]

I personally am very pessmistic about people. Makes sense indeed. But nobody looks at the downsides and sustainability anymore.

 

[Phil_1983]

You are right. Sometimes I want to believe that in this field, this hobby, the world and the people are still okay. Maybe I am too naive.

Anyway, I am glad to be here with you guys.

 

[Mike Wise]

I remember in the 1970s and 80s (am I really that old??) that one rarely saw domestic dwarf cichlids in shops. Most were wild and sold as "Misc. Dwarf Cichlids". It was amazing what you could find. Most sold for <$5.00, some as low as $2.00 each. Now dwarf cichlids are much more expensive of course and most are domestic fish. I understand and accept this.

I also know that when I was at exporters in Peru that they bought - and mixed - collections from several collectors. Also most tanks contained a preponderance of males. Even our collecting in the wild would often result in more males. I don't know why this is. Maybe it's because males tend to be more exposed while females hide?

As for fish only sold as pairs? Well, if the supplier only sells the shop fish as pairs, the shop will (generally) sell them as pairs. This is also true for species identification. Shop keepers are not (generally) taxonomists. So if a shop is sold a fish as Apisto "X" then the shop sells it as Apisto "X".

 

[Eddy. E.]

For real? In my area in Germany, near Dortmund, I really have problems finding "real" females. Of course, you can get trios at some of the shops, but if I take a closer look at the tanks, I get the impression that someone else must have bought a lot of those before me

Take a look into the stocklist of Tropicwater.

https://www.tropicwater.eu/media/pdf/stockliste_fische.pdf

 

[Phil_1983]

Take a look into the stocklist of Tropicwater.

https://www.tropicwater.eu/media/pdf/stockliste_fische.pdf

Thanks for the tip! I did, and I even called Wolfgang, who owns that shop.

He told me, especially for bitaeniata, that I should get a lot of them because they can't tell the sex of the fish at the size they are selling them, and that he has heard that most of the fish turn out to be male.

He also told me to look for larger captive-bred specimens if I want male/female.

I felt really welcome, though, and had a good feeling after the phone call. If I ever order fish, it will definitely be from Tropicwater.

 

[Eddy. E.]

To the best of my knowledge, the sex ratio in Apistogramma breeding can be altered through temperature-dependent sex determination. If the temperature during breeding is maintained at 26–27°C, males predominate. If the temperature is lower, e.g., 23°C, females predominate.
Dr. Römer describes this possibility in cichlid breeding in Cichlidenatlas Vol. 1.

 

[anewbie]

My vague memory is someone of authority commented on this forum that in the wild the larger more dominant females tended to breed higher up in the stream producing more males and the smaller or less dominant females would breed with smaller males in lower areas producing more females. Perhaps this would explain why catches tend to have more males as they would be in more shallow areas.

 

[Phil_1983]

To the best of my knowledge, the sex ratio in Apistogramma breeding can be altered through temperature-dependent sex determination. If the temperature during breeding is maintained at 26–27°C, males predominate. If the temperature is lower, e.g., 23°C, females predominate.
Dr. Römer describes this possibility in cichlid breeding in Cichlidenatlas Vol. 1.

Yeah, well, this is a book I am still looking to get

 

[Mike Wise]

My vague memory is someone of authority commented on this forum that in the wild the larger more dominant females tended to breed higher up in the stream producing more males and the smaller or less dominant females would breed with smaller males in lower areas producing more females. Perhaps this would explain why catches tend to have more males as they would be in more shallow areas.

No, not quite right. Römer wrote in an article that dominant females selected territories where conditions produced equal numbers of both sexes. Subdominant females produced more females in cooler areas and more males in warmer areas. The end result would be equal numbers of both sex, but only if equal numbers of both sexes survive.

 

[Eddy. E.]

Thanks for the correction. I didn't have the book handy. Still, I would say—or at least that's how I understand it—that if the brood is hatched by lowering the temperature, more females develop than males.

 

[Mike Wise]

That is true, but in the wild dominant females tend to choose sites with ideal temperatures for 50/50 broods. I have the original paper somewhere. I don't think it was in either of his books.