Finding bitaeniata female when male locality is kind of unknown

[Phil_1983]

Hi all,

I have a question about *Apistogramma bitaeniata* locality forms.

The breeder told me that my male is a “Peru Blue”, but he does not know the exact collection locality. Because of that, I am unsure how to judge this fish in terms of breeding.

What I mainly want to understand is this: if such a male were paired with a female from a Brazilian form, would the offspring be genetically fine? In other words, would this simply produce healthy, viable offspring within the same species, or could mixing different locality forms cause genetic problems?

I am also interested in the breeding ethics side of it, of course. Even if the offspring would be genetically normal, would such a pairing still be considered poor practice because it mixes different locality lines?

And more generally, how do you handle fish when the exact origin is unknown? If a fish is sold under a name like “Peru Blue”, but the actual collection locality is not known, would you still consider breeding it with another *A. bitaeniata*, or would you avoid it altogether just to be on the safe side?

I would really appreciate hearing how more experienced keepers and breeders look at this.

 

[anewbie]

It depends if they are both genetically the same species. Looking at tom's website there are a *lot* of cf bitaeniata which are probably similar but genetically different species. I'm sure frank or mike can comment on more on peru vs brazil and if they are likely the same species or different so wait a bit - but if a breeder has both males and female i'd just get a pair - shipping is expensive and the extra female probably isn't.

 

[Phil_1983]

Thanks a lot! I saw that list on Tom's website.

To be honest, I'm not planning to get a female for my male bitaenita. Someone asked me if I wanted to buy his. I declined, but it made me think about the topic, and since I didn't really know much about it, I thought I could ask you guys.

Brazil is more of an example of a fish that is located more than a few miles away from what I probably have. It would also be interesting to know if there were any differences between 'closer' catch locations.

 

[MacZ]

Two cents from the zoo practice (not that I work in the field, I know some zoologists and it's kind of a special interest): There are many species kept in captivity beyond fish that are bred in zoos and who's individuals are swapped and exchanged to keep genetic diversity. In many species genetic studies showed that a lot of the animals of these species in captivity are actually hybrids. A good and obvious example: Orca. It is very likely that the so-called ecotypes (like North-eastern Residents around Vancouver Island or Icelandic Herring-eaters are not just subspecies but on the brink of speciasation. Now looking at the captive population: The wild caught individuals come from at least three, maybe four different and separate populations. They have become hybrids if you will.

And you can observe this in captive fish as well. And this is the reason we should be aware of the origins of our fish, or otherwise it is likely we end up losing natural types and species because we crossbred them with similar and related individuals.

 

[Phil_1983]

I think I get your point and I absolutely agree with you, Mac.

In any case, even though I am interested in knowing the collection locality of my fish, it does not really help me at this point. The breeder I got the bitaeniata from told me: “They are F1; their parents were wild-caught fish, but I could not find out exactly where they came from.” So the only information I have is “Peru blue,” which is what the breeder told me.

That is perfectly fine for me, since I do not have the time or space to breed them anyway. Still, I was really wondering: what would be the next step for an experienced breeder in a case like this?

I am by no means an expert who can tell exactly which form I have, so that would be the first problem.

The second question is this: when you buy wild-caught fish from an LFS, or even from a source like Tropicwater (basically Glaser), how reliable is the claimed collection locality really?

Is there even a realistic chance of finding a matching mate — same species, same form — or is that nearly impossible unless you collect the fish yourself?

Sorry if these questions seem stupid, but I am genuinely trying to get more seriously involved in this hobby.

 

[MacZ]

The second question is this: when you buy wild-caught fish from an LFS, or even from a source like Tropicwater (basically Glaser), how reliable is the claimed collection locality really?

Depends on the importer. If they come via Glaser or Ruinemans I'd be confident the info is relatively safe but not always as detailed as one would wish. Accordingly, if you know the LFS buys from them the info should be correct.

I also know Frank and Mike will disagree with Eddy on the reliability of ID from Glaser, as their guy (Frank Schaefer) is really good, but not infallible.

 

[Frank Hättich]

That is perfectly fine for me, since I do not have the time or space to breed them anyway. Still, I was really wondering: what would be the next step for an experienced breeder in a case like this?

I personally would not breed with specimens from different locations, since recent research suggests that different location usually means genetically different species. Because of this, most tank bred strains of "superspecies" like A. cacatuoides, A. agassizii, A. bitaeniata etc. are almost certainly hybrids anyway. Here you find an earlier discussion about A. bitaeniata.

 

[Eddy. E.]

No one is infallible, but someone has to serve as a reliable source, and unfortunately, we aren't there when the fish are caught to rule out any questions about their origin.

 

[Phil_1983]

I personally would not breed with specimens from different locations, since recent research suggests that different location usually means genetically different species. Because of this, most tank bred strains of "superspecies" like A. cacatuoides, A. agassizii, A. bitaeniata etc. are almost certainly hybrids anyway. Here you find an earlier discussion about A. bitaeniata.

Okay, that is kind of sad.

I will have alook into the link. Thanks a lot!

 

[Phil_1983]

No one is infallible, but someone has to serve as a reliable source, and unfortunately, we aren't there when the fish are caught to rule out any questions about their origin.

This is true, unfortunately.

 

[anewbie]

This is true, unfortunately.

If it makes you feel better I have 3 wc female elizabeth that are 'orphaned' because I won't put a male with them from another catch location. Given how exporters work i can never be sure if a male came from the same location. Kind of a pity since they are nice fishes.

 

[Phil_1983]

If it makes you feel better I have 3 wc female elizabeth that are 'orphaned' because I won't put a male with them from another catch location. Given how exporters work i can never be sure if a male came from the same location. Kind of a pity since they are nice fishes.

Thank you for that, I really appreciate it. To be honest, I’m actually coping with the situation fairly well at the moment. What really frustrates me more is how difficult it is in general to find females in the first place.

And that is despite the fact that you often cannot even buy single males, because many breeders and shops only want to sell “pairs”.

That part is a bit discouraging for my plans, especially since I would like to try breeding in the future.

 

[Mike Wise]

If you want to be really confused, the holotype of A. bitaeniata according to Pellegrin, 1936 was collected in the Rio Madeira in Brazil with no known location. They were from a commercial import from Rabaut in 1934. In 1980 Kullander noted that Rabaut was not collecting fish in the Madeira but was in Peru and Colombia emphasizing on bringing in rare Neon Tetras. Since no known locations of the (super)species was known from anywhere below the Rio Tefe at that time Kullander questioned the Madeira location. Koslowski, 1986, pictured a juvenile apisto that looked like a young A. bitaeniata but it died before reaching maturity and positively identified. Since then forms of bitaeniata have been reported as far as the Rio Tapajos.

Are all populations of A. bitaeniata (sensu lato) one species? No. Tougard et al., 2017, recognized 2 populations of bitaeniata as being separate species genetically. These were from Peru and appear similar in appearence to other Peruvian forms. It is very possible that every tributary of the upper Amazon has a separate species genetically.

I guess the next question is should we breed specimens from different or unknown locations? That answer depends on the breeder. I personnally do not. If one does, it is ethical that the breeder to inform customers of the fact. Are hybrids of such closely related species bad? Well, since I am of European decent it is most likely that I have 2-5% Neandertal DNA in my genes. Does this bother me? Not in the least.

 

[MacZ]

Are hybrids of such closely related species bad? Well, since I am of European decent it is most likely that I have 2-5% Neandertal DNA in my genes. Does this bother me? Not in the least.

I want to emphasize this: All I said about hybrids before is only of interest from a conservational point of view. Genetically it is not bad per se.

 

[anewbie]

I want to emphasize this: All I said about hybrids before is only of interest from a conservational point of view. Genetically it is not bad per se.

I suspect there are so many species being wiped out the next 50 years that conservation is going to look like a stone throw in an ocean. That doesnt' make it wrong and I will certianly not intentionally mix species hence my elizabeth becoming orphans and ceasing breeding of my ortegai once Frank identified them as hybrids. But the reality of words like ethics and conservation seems hopeless these days on a macro level.

There is one bright spot with domestics many of these issues go away if that is your sort of thing.

 

[MacZ]

But the reality of words like ethics and conservation seems hopeless these days on a macro level.

They SEEM. And you are one of the people that make change possible and that make it count by your actions. I know the world is a mess, but it takes people that do SOMETHING. If it wasn't for those it would really be game over.

That doesnt' make it wrong and I will certianly not intentionally mix species hence my elizabeth becoming orphans and ceasing breeding of my ortegai once Frank identified them as hybrids.

Actions like these AND saying that you do this, even though you don't think it counts.

Differently put: In this moment the forum shows me there are 4 members and almost 1000 guests online right now.
Take away the bots there will still be a number of people that are likely to read one of our posts. And people listen to a lot of what is said here. So it does count more than you think.

 

[Phil_1983]

Thank you all very much for your replies and for taking the time to explain this in such detail.

This was very helpful for me, because it made the whole topic much clearer: on the one hand there is the biological/genetic side, and on the other hand the ethical and conservation-related side of keeping and breeding locality forms.

A special thank you to Mike Wise as well. Your explanation about the confusing history of A. bitaeniata and the uncertain type locality really shows how careful one has to be with this complex. I also appreciated your balanced view that the question of whether to breed fish from unknown or different localities is, in the end, also a matter of the breeder’s own standards and transparency.

For me personally, the discussion confirms that it is better to be cautious, especially when the exact origin is unclear. Even if I am not planning to breed these fish at the moment, I wanted to understand how more experienced people think about such cases — and your answers helped me a lot.

So thanks again to everyone who contributed. I really appreciate it.

 

[Eddy. E.]

In Germany, it’s often the other way around. Females are frequently priced at the same rate as males. In principle, you could get more, but you can understand the (online) retailers’ perspective. What are you supposed to do with the extra males?

 

[Phil_1983]

In Germany, it’s often the other way around. Females are frequently priced at the same rate as males. In principle, you could get more, but you can understand the (online) retailers’ perspective. What are you supposed to do with the extra males?

For real? In my area in Germany, near Dortmund, I really have problems finding "real" females. Of course, you can get trios at some of the shops, but if I take a closer look at the tanks, I get the impression that someone else must have bought a lot of those before me

 

[MacZ]

The typical LFS gets about 2 males per female in a delivery, generally most commercial breeders offer this ratio. Many still only offer pairs as an item, so you always have a surplus of males in the trade.
That's why I have no problems advising to get males only for display tanks.