Few questions about A. cacatuoides + breeding report

[Astrid]

Hi all!

Since I saw in July a picture of a male of Apistogramma cacatuoides for the first time, I immediately fell in love with this fish. So I bought 2 males and 2 females for my new 55 gal tank in August. One male died in quarantine tank and when i put the two females and the male into my new tank, the male immediately started to spawn with one of the females. They found a shelter behind one rock, which was hiden from the rest of the tank.
I didnt think that there could be any small fish because of the hard water (kH 8, gH 16) and other fish in the tank (also young couple of Pterophyllum scalare). And I was sure- there were no eggs in the morning next day.

I bought a second male, so then there were 2 males and 2 females again. But by the time the two females died... and that was also the time when I decided to really try to reproduce this fish. I have also a small 17 gal planted tank. I bought 25 litres of distilled water (used by many aquarists here) and I mixed water with final kH 5 and gH 9. I wanted to get it to kH 4 and gH 8 or is this low enough? Ive also added som peat and it decreased pH from 8 to 7,6.

Ive also bought 4 more females two days ago. I left the dominant male with two females in that small tank. There are two caves: one from rocks and one is coconut shell.

The fish's behaviour is that the females are fighting against each other some time... and the male is only interested in showing his nice fins to the females. He even doesnt like to eat! Well, something he eats, but it is much less then before he met the females... He just seems to be so happy that he is now together with them!
But the girls behave like he isnt there... Sometimes they go to the coconut shell or the cave from rocks but they immadiately come out.

Ive read a lot about breeding and reproduction of these fishes- also on this wonderful sites. Now I have few questions, which I have not found the answeres on (maybe I didnt search good enough?).

1. The male is 6 cm (2.3 inch) long and the new females are 3 cm (1.2 inch) long. Can it be, that the females are too young and arent able to spawn yet? In which length are the females mature? Or am I just impatient and the fishes need only time to get accustomed to the tank?

2. In that tank I have also some young fish of Xiphophorus helleri and Poecilia reticulata. If there are artelnatively some young apistos and I will feed them with Artemia salina, they may eat it before the young apistos get to it... Well, may be not, there are only about 10 of these fish and the old apistos dont do anything with them.

3. I read that the Apisto mothers are sensitive to any disturbance. But Ive also read that the water should be changed weekly. I do so now and with a tube I also take away some mess on the bottom of the tank. Isnt this also some kind of disturbance and the mother could eat the eggs? Or isnt this problem at all?

At the end of my post I also want to add some pictures of the dominant male and one of the four new females.

And please excuse my English. I am still learmimg it.

 

[emjay653]

First off I'll start by saying for someone that is still learning English, you are very good at it.

Secondly, that male Cac you have is absolutely gorgeous...The first one I had would have competed with it for colouring, but unfortunately a Plec knocked a clay pot on top of it and killed it The replacement is very dull in comparison.

Anyway, when my first pair of Cacs bred, I didn't do any water changes at all. I left them to themselves, and they were fine with it. The only thing that got me was the females habit of moving the eggs (She moved them 3 times). Sadly tho, none of the fry lived for long. As for size, my Cacs were probably not much bigger than what yours are when they bred, altho the females colour got very yellow in comparison to what it had been.

HTH
Mj

 

[Astrid]

First off I'll start by saying for someone that is still learning English, you are very good at it.

Thanks. To be true, Ive been learning it for 7 years... But I think I am a litle precise in the things like this... I mean in proper spellings and grammer and so... I also wasnt sure if it can be said 'fishes' as plural for fish... Or if it is same in singular and plural. So just in case I put that sentense at the end of my post.... But back to the apistos

Secondly, that male Cac you have is absolutely gorgeous...

I had a luck that I took so nice photo. I just tried it a lot of times and once I succed with a nice picture. And it was during the time when there were only that two male in my 55 gal tank. When the man doesnt have any lady whom he can show his fins, he simply doesnt do it or just do it very rarely.

The only thing that got me was the females habit of moving the eggs (She moved them 3 times).

Could I ask you, how many shelters did you have that time in your tank? I am considering, if that two which I have are enough.

Sadly tho, none of the fry lived for long.

Why? Could not be a reason not water changing? Or are you sure about the reason?

As for size, my Cacs were probably not much bigger than what yours are when they bred, altho the females colour got very yellow in comparison to what it had been.

Yesterday Ive read on these sites that they should grow to 10 cm - male and 8 cm female! That made me think if they really arent too young. Do they really grow to this size? Even in a small tank? I have also some rams and Ive found out that they live short and thought that it is the same with apistos. May be not. How long do they live?

And about the color of a female before spawning. I think my females are all the same color as that one on the picture. Sometimes when the two females fight against each other, they are brighter and the black streak along their body disappears. Not brightly yellow color yet, but I think they just need time...

And thanks for your answer, Mj

 

[Michael]

Dward Cichlids

If you dont mind me asking where did you buy your Apistogramma cacatuoides and how much did they cost?

-Michael

 

[Astrid]

Dward Cichlids

If you dont mind me asking ....

I dont Just happy that someone read my post and is interested.

where did you buy your Apistogramma cacatuoides and how much did they cost?

Michael, I can tell you exactly where I bought them, but... I am from Slovakia. I dont know if you noticed that. For them who dont know it is a small republic in the heart of Europe, former Czechoslovakia.

Well, I bought them in one fish store in our capital. I think it is the best store with fish, plants and aquarium eqiupment here. They have a lot of fish spieces, also imports. I know only just one more place here where can be fish like ottos, SAEs, apistos and others bought... Also the cacatuoides are imports, so they are a bit more expensive than here bred fish.

And the price: One Apistogramma cacatuoides costs here 85 Slovak crowns (Sk). That is 2.6 USD or 2.1 Euro. For comparison: A guppy costs 20 Sk, a neon 16 Sk, an otto 70 Sk, 3 cm long SAE 65 Sk, a ram 85 Sk. A loaf of bread costs 21 Sk and small ice-cream 6 SK (chocolate is my favourite ). An average monthly salary is 14 000 Sk (429 USD or 346 Euro). But now Ive a little deviated from apistos again

 

[aspen]

that info is quite good to put the prices into perspective for us. for your information, some nice apistos are imported from the czech republic here to canada. they arrive here in nice shape and are fairly moderately priced. apparently there is a network of hobby breeders shipping all over the world in prague and they are developing a pretty decent reputation.

that male is a very pretty fish. (the plural of fish is just fish btw) likely a wild cacatuoides, but i cannot find the exact colour morph in roemer's atlas. does the fish show as much yellow as in your pic, or are the caudal and dorsal fins actually more orange 'in person'?

cacs will surprise you, as they can breed when they are quite small. the yellow bodies of the females and the dark black markings are a good sign breeding is happening, or about to happen. with the right conditions, they can be quite prolific and are good parents.

as for the water you are using, the spawns might increase in size with softer water, but you will likely have at least 50% hatch rate, maybe more, if all other conditions are correct.

rick

 

[Astrid]

that info is quite good to put the prices into perspective for us. for your information, some nice apistos are imported from the czech republic here to canada. they arrive here in nice shape and are fairly moderately priced. apparently there is a network of hobby breeders shipping all over the world in prague and they are developing a pretty decent reputation.

Thats interesting. I know that aquarium hobby has a long tradition in czech republic. A lot of fish are bred there and the czech republic is on the fourth place in exporting fish all over the world (after Singapore, USA and Malaysia).

that male is a very pretty fish. (the plural of fish is just fish btw) likely a wild cacatuoides, but i cannot find the exact colour morph in roemer's atlas. does the fish show as much yellow as in your pic, or are the caudal and dorsal fins actually more orange 'in person'?

Rick, you are right. In reality, the fins are more orange. Just when you mentioned this, I noticed the difference between the photo and reality. Dont know why it is so. May be during making photo he was really a little more yellow? Or it was just the light and the other stuff around it (in fact, I dont know much about photographing teory).

cacs will surprise you, as they can breed when they are quite small. the yellow bodies of the females and the dark black markings are a good sign breeding is happening, or about to happen. with the right conditions, they can be quite prolific and are good parents.

Thanks. I hope I will see that coloration soon. But I also can be patient...
Could you also answer my question how long do they live? Is there anything special about their life length or do they live as long as an average fish? What I am thinking about is that if the males arent too old... and get even older by the time while the females are maturing... may be a little naive question if the males are in their middle ages now

as for the water you are using, the spawns might increase in size with softer water, but you will likely have at least 50% hatch rate, maybe more, if all other conditions are correct.

Just interested if they can spawn and if the fry can grow up also in my tap water (kH 8, gH 16)- only theoretical.
And if I sometimes in the future want to move some fish from one aquarium to another, would it be a big shock for them to change water hardness from kH 8, gH 16 to kH 5, gH 9? Or to have safety, should I better but them in a bucket and change there the hardness slowly? Or would it be OK also without it?

And also one thing about the coloration of the males which I noticed while there were two males in the 55 gal tank. The domainant male had generally dark puprle to dark blue color of his body and orange fins. The subdominant male had almost white body and the black streak along his body (I hope that it is a good expression) was very visible. Something like that on the picture but even lighter. The dominant male changed his color often. When he met the subdominant male, he became darker.
By the way they had two small territories on the opposite sides of the tank. Well, that may have not been the territories in the right meaning of that word, because the dominant male was the boss also in the other male's territory.

Now it is a little different, while the males are separated. Both he males are almost the same color. Something like that on the picture.

 

[Neil]

Astrid,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

Happy to have you with us!

Could you also answer my question how long do they live? Is there anything special about their life length or do they live as long as an average fish?

Apistogramma spp. do not have particularly long lifespans. 2 to 3 years is quite common, but they can live longer. The problem usually is that they are not usually kept in ideal conditions. Maintaining softer water that is kept very clean via weekly water changes is something that most people cannot or will not do over the course of several years. your fish probably have a long way to go before you have to worry about them getting too old.

Just interested if they can spawn and if the fry can grow up also in my tap water (kH 8, gH 16)- only theoretical.

Probably. But as rick said, the results of breeding may not be ideal. Much easy to do it in softer water.

And if I sometimes in the future want to move some fish from one aquarium to another, would it be a big shock for them to change water hardness from kH 8, gH 16 to kH 5, gH 9? Or to have safety, should I better but them in a bucket and change there the hardness slowly? Or would it be OK also without it?

That change would be minor for an apisto. They likely will want to dive right in!

Now it is a little different, while the males are separated. Both he males are almost the same color. Something like that on the picture.

One male will usually hold the dominant position in the tank, unless it is a massive tank. His color will likely be the most striking, because he gets the girls. Sub-dominant males may still reproduce, but they usually have to be sneaky about it. They quite often will be dull in color or actually carry some of the characteristic colors of the female to keep from offending the dominant male. Once that dominant male is gone, injured or old, the next in line will quickly develop all the splendid characteristics that go with being TOP DOG (or top fish!).

One more thing. Female cacatuoides can successfully breed at 3/4 of an inch. Yours are plenty big enough. Cacatuoides female, although much more yellow than normal, do not necessarily have to be bright yellow when spawning. I have found that cacs are less yellow in breeding than many other apisto females. But, you may not see them breed. As I said, it is more difficult and less likely for them to breed in the above-stated conditions. Your best bet is alot of water changes or adjusting the water.

Good luck,
Neil

 

[Astrid]

Thanks for nice greeting, Neil. I am also happy that Ive found these sites.
And thanks for answers to my question. But may be you dont understand my situation correctly.
I have a 'big' 55 gal community tank with my tap water (kH 8, gH 16).
I have also a 'small' 17 gal tank only for Apistos. Specially for them I prepared softer water by mixing my tap water with distilled water. The actual water hardness is kH 5 and gH 9-10. May be I should make it even softer. This was also one question in my first contribution.

That question if they can be bred also in my tap water was only theoretical.

 

[emjay653]

Hi Astrid,

I had 2 terracotta flower pots in there. She originally laid the eggs on the leaf of a silk plastic plant, then moved them to a small hole in a bit of driftwood. Finally she moved them to one of the pots where they hatched.

I've no idea why they died, but it may have been because I did not do any water changes after the female originally laid the eggs, so that was probably about 3wks without a change, or it may not have been.

Shortly after that, the male was killed by a Clown Plec knocking one of the pots on top of him.

On the brighter side, I've since bought another pair, which brings my tally upto 3 (1m 2f) so maybe I'll get some eggs out of these. * Fingers crossed *

HTH
Mj[/quote]

 

[Neil]

Astrid,

But may be you dont understand my situation correctly.
I have a 'big' 55 gal community tank with my tap water (kH 8, gH 16).
I have also a 'small' 17 gal tank only for Apistos. Specially for them I prepared softer water by mixing my tap water with distilled water. The actual water hardness is kH 5 and gH 9-10.

I got it. The water in your 17g, although much better for Apistogramma than the water in your 55g., is still considered and the hard side. Don't get me wrong, it isn't bad; it just isn't what you would want to ideally use to breed most species, even cacatuoides. They will probably breed in the 55 with limited results, breed in the 17 with good results, but breed in 3-4KH, 5-6GH with excellent results. Again, water cleanliness is most important though, regardless of the hardness - but easpecially in neutral to harder water.

May be I should make it even softer.

I wouldn't worry about it now for your cacs. Go with what you are doing and see how things go. If they haven't spawned within a month or so, you can try other things. I would be suprised if you become interested in other apisto species though. Depending on which ones, you will want to soften the water more than you are now. Some species require virtually no hardness for proper hatching and development of the eggs.

Neil

 

[Astrid]

Mj: Thanks for your answer and hope you will succeed in breeding this time.

Neil: Thanks again for your advice. And you are right that I am also interested in other dwarf cichlids. But they are more difficult to purchase here and mostly are not in very good condition.
But blue rams are wide-spread here and I also have one pair of them in the 55 gal. tank. May be some time...
------

Ive just taken some photos of my fish and this one is quite good.

 

[Astrid]

I cant believe it! While I was feeding the fish in my 55 gal tank, I noticed that I cant find the cacatuoides. Finally I found one female. And then I found also the male in a strange position behind one rock. I looked better and noticed that also one female is there. And I found 5 eggs! And then there were more and more of them.
I also took some pictures. They are still in the camera. May be they are also still laying the eggs. The male sometimes go out to fight off some other fish that go too close.

Now I am really not sure what to do. I have also one empty 30 litres tank. May be I should mix some softer water and try to put the female with the eggs in it. I saw somewhere here how it should be done- to but the female together with eggs to a plastic pot...
Do u think it is a good idea? Or should I wait and the other pair in my 17 gallon will probably also spawn?

Every advice could be really helpful.

 

[Astrid]

I am not sure if I did well when I placed the eggs and the female to smaller tank. But when I was thinking that if the parents would be able to save them from other fish, most of the fish would die for hunger. They may find something in the tank, but not much. So I thought it would be better to place them to separate tank.
Unfortunately I wasnt able to put them in the pot together with female. So I first put out the eggs and only then the female. That may have been the reason of female's behaviour. She isnt afraid, I think, but she also doesnt pay any attention to the eggs. She just swims around the tank.
Anyway, the water in that tank should have gH 7.

I am just worried if she doesnt eat the eggs during the night. I hope that no. And I also hope that the eggs wont mould.

Ive also taken some picture while they were spawning.

 

[Astrid]

I could expect it, but there were no eggs in the tank next morning. I also didnt find them anywhere in the tank and the female had round belly again. So she is back in the 55 gal tank.

But more important thing is that I found one female in the 17 gal tank guarding eggs in the coconut shell. Well, I have not seen the eggs, but I am sure they are there because of her appearance (coloration, thin belly) and changed behaviour to the male (she isnt ignoring him any more when they meet each other- now she is 'dancing' in front of him).

Half of the time she spends inside of the coconut shell and the other half she swims around and keeps the second female (which is very round now, may be full of eggs?) and young fish of xiphophorus helleri (that I mentioned before) in distance from the shell. She also ate some snaps and I think it tasted her a lot.


Now I am only not sure when should I do water change. I didnt change it since last wednesday. Is it better to do it before there are some fry, or after?

I read somewhere here that the young fish should be born in 3 days. Isnt it too early? Will they also leave the coconut shell that time? i guess only after consuming the yolk, when they will be able to swim and search for food.
I have some artemia salina (dont know its name in english). It only must be placed in salt water and wait 2 days (then the small artemia will appear). I also have powder of food for fry- Sera Micron.
Do you think it is a good diet for young fish?

Every comment is welcomed.

And some photos to show the coloration of guarding female.

 

[farm41]

Do the water changes and don't worry about it, clean water is the most important thing for fry. I change my fry tanks water 3 times weekly about 25%.

Just use the bbs(artemia) not the powered food.