Do you buy unsexible juveniles?

[Mike Wise]

I thought that I'd throw this question out. How many of you feel comfortable about buying/selling juveniles that are too young to sex? We have scientific studies that show that sex ratio in apistos is determined by temperature and some extent pH. We have similar anecdotal information of the same for Westies, too. I always feel uncomfortable selling unsexed juveniles of apistos and krib types. Strangely, I don't seem to have the same problem with open substrate breeding species like Laetacara and Hemichromis. Maybe it's because skewed sex ratios aren't common with these fish. Maybe it's because they have such large spawns that I tend to sell them by the dozen and it's more likely to get some of each sex. Also, the rarity (expense) has some affect, too. What do you think?

 

[Nebraska_cichlids]

Good question. I sell most of my juvenile Westies as "unsexed" in groups of six and throw in 1 or 2 extras. Most of the time I can sex the juvies pretty well and send the buyer a good mix of sexes without actually making that promise. On the other hand, I occasionally bought young adults as pairs that actually turned out being two males.

 

[Gordon C. Snelling]

I generally don't mind buying unsexed juvies, As long as I buy a group I feel fairly confident I will get at least one pair.

 

[tjudy]

It depends upon the source for me. If I am getting the fish from breeders that I have not had a problem with sex ratio issues, then I will buy.

I have stopped distributing unsexable juveniles because I do have sex ratio issues with Pelvicachromis.

 

[animalmgc]

all depends on who your dealing with.I've recently just bought Wild Apisto for my 1st time and ended up with what I expected.But usually I'll ask around and get some feedback.6 baenschi 3 aggies and 3 Masken (Apache) And Aquaticclarity did Well and my male aggie is just AWESOME

 

[jmtrops]

I dont like to buy unsexed but many times you have to, and many times I have ended up with all 1 sex. I only sell my dwarfs as pairs now. I agree temp seems to be a big factor but there seems to be other factors as well, maybe genetics? Last year I had 4 pairs of pelvicachromis and I heat the room so I think the temp was the same for all. I kept the hardness the same for all. The 2 F0 pairs gave me perfect ratios and the other 2 that were far removed from wild, 1 pair gave mostly females and the other mostly males.

 

[Erik82]

Normally i don't like to buy unsexed juveniles. But it's depending which fish you are dealing with. For example, i had the opportunity to buy some WC apistogramma's from Letitia and iniridae. Besides the sexe, it even wasn't clear which species they were. It could be A. sp. blutkehl, A. iniridae, also A. sp. kelleri and maybe some other species. The result of a mix i bought (around 25 apistogramma's) is:
2 couples A. sp. breitbinden (one couple is breeding, haven's seen swimming larvae)
2 males A. uaupesi and 1 female (a couple is breeding, huge amount of larvae approximately 60 -70)
2 females A. sp blutkehl and one male (a couple is breeding and having about 20 swimming larvae)
3 couples A. iniridae (all breeding and having larvae

I am more then pleased with this mix. They are breeding machines! Maybe i got some luck in here, normally i wont buy unsexed species.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm aiming to sell all my spare fish as pairs or trio's. After some initial teething problems I'm now waiting until they are clearly sexable sub-adult. I don't post fish so all private sales are local people where they can bring back an individual of the wrong sex.

The problem with this has been that I have had lots of un-saleable females. The problem I have now is that I have lots of spare males, which makes housing all of them more problematical.

I would buy a group of at least 6 juveniles, but I wouldn't buy or sell a pair that I couldn't sex.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

...I agree temp seems to be a big factor but there seems to be other factors as well, maybe genetics? Last year I had 4 pairs of pelvicachromis and I heat the room so I think the temp was the same for all. I kept the hardness the same for all. The 2 F0 pairs gave me perfect ratios and the other 2 that were far removed from wild, 1 pair gave mostly females and the other mostly males.

Were all the fish of the same species/population? I read as long ago as the late 70s that different species of Kribs and populations of Pv. taeniatus (sensu lato) need different pH values to ensure even sex ratios. Unlike apistos, no controled study has ever been done on Kribs. This would be another valuable research project/graduate thesis.

 

[Mike Wise]

... I would buy a group of at least 6 juveniles, but I wouldn't buy or sell a pair that I couldn't sex.

Statistically, this is valid - if you have a random and nonskewed population at the beginning. The problem is that many times you don't.

Back in the 80s, I once had a spawn of 100+ A. agassizii. Every one turned out to be female. I didn't understand why at the time. Earlier in the year I had a spawn (50+) that turned out to be closer to 50/50. Both spawns were in the same tank, same parents, same water/maintenance. Only after reading Römer & Beisenherz's paper on sex ratios and temperatures did I understand what happened. My fish room is heated, not individual tanks. During the summer I would turn off the heat and open a window. The tanks usually never dropped below 75º/24ºC. My spawn of 100+ fry occurred in September. Here in Denver the high temperatures at this time are usually 80ºF/27ºC but at night the temperature can often drop to 50ºF/10ºC. The window was left open at night until the water temperature was below 72ºF/23ºC. Obviously the cool water temperature caused the skewed sex ratio. I now keep the temperature more stable, but other breeders might not.

 

[Ruki]

If I have a choice I'd buy only sexible fishes. But reality is different. Sometimes if I don't buy bunch of "fry" I won't be able to buy this species later...
And after buying some of fishes I don't know what to do with spare "only males" or "only females"....

If I'm selling fishes I'm trying to sell big juveniles to be sure that I'm selling males or females. Only if I don't have a choice I sell unsexible juveniles(now I don;t have enough space for little cacs....).

 

[jmtrops]

The species with good ratios was signatus and pulcher and the mostly males was taeniatus and the mostly female was pulcher. I'm sure there are many variables and each species and population may be more or less subseptable to the different variables. That is why I wait til I can sex them. Can't do much with extra males, try to sell them to pet stores at a discount but if I have extra females I just sell trios.