Disappearing EBR fry :(

[jetajockey]

Had my first round of eggs a few weeks back, hatched them artificially in a 5g, initially had about 30 or 40 free swimmers. After a few days that amount dwindled down to 3 or 4, the rest just disappeared.
Tank only has about 2g of water in it, I lowered the water level to make maintenance easier. Tank stays a steady 80 degrees thanks to a jager heater.
I was doing daily water changes of around 50%. As soon as free swimming, I attempted to feed them with decapped brine shrimp, as well as microworms. They didn't seem to be eating either, so I also added some green water for good measure, and added some moss and a few snails once the fry went free swimming.

I vacuumed up all the food every day and kept the tank pretty clean, so I don't know what happened. I have live bbs going now, since I also have a tank of peacock gudgeon fry going (which are doing great).

What should I be feeding them as soon as they are free swimming? Any ideas of what caused them to die off?

I have another batch of eggs that I'm going to hatch over the next few days, so any and all replies are appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Bilbo]

Sorry to hear of your losses, especially because I have had the same problems time and time again with GBR's.

I was loosing hundreds of fry so this is what I did. Spawn them in a tank with lots of java moss and 1cm of sand or fine stones and maybe some leaf litter or other plants like Indian fern with a big root structure. Water soft and slightly acidic and clean but tank doesn't have to be to clean. Algae or a bit of gunge seems to be an advantage. The point is it doesn't have to look to great as long as the water quality is good. Bare bottom tanks never worked well for me until the fry are at least 6 weeks old.
Remove parents after they have laid and let the fry eat the microorganisms in the moss. Feed paramecium if you can get it or any infusoria in small doses for a week and then start with newly hatched brine shrimp or micro-worms.

This is only my experiences and is not the definitive guide on blue rams. Best of luck with them.

The biggest issue for me seemed to be wrong water and starvation.

 

[MikeW65]

Hi JJ,

I start mine in a 5 gal, full, feed them small amounts of San Fracisco strain BBS as they are smaller. I use a airstone near the surface to cut down on the amount of current it produces and a heater at 82 - 84 degrees. If there is any food after 30 minutes get it out as it will go bad quickly at that temp. I also do a 90 -95% water change every day. Water quality and a clean bottom are #1 priorities the first few weeks. A few snails or baby plecos will help on the bottom.
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

Thanks for the replies.


Bilbo, what do you think the reasoning behind having substrate is? The only benefit I can think of is added surface area for beneficial bacteria to colonize on.



Mike,

What is the advantage of filling the tank up? Less variance in water quality I'm guessing? I'm considering doing this also, I know I did it originally but I lowered the water level because vacuuming was difficult and feeding seemed like a crap shoot because the fry were dispersed all throughout the tank.

You are feeding them Sanfran BBS as soon as they are free swimming? I attempted to use decaps but it seems like they just spit them out so a total waste of time.

I have my tanks turned width-wise on a rack so that is one of my issues also...

 

[Bilbo]

I am sorry I don’t know the reason behind it, all I know is when I had them in a tank with fine sand and plants I had fry survive and when I didn't I didn't.

In my experience the only reason to have a bare bottom tank for newly hatched fry is so you can more easily siphon the dead bodies out.
Many other people have great success with bare tanks. I just use what worked for me.

I don’t use decap on newly hatched fry, they just wont/cant take it. If you are going to try brine shrimp on ram fry then it has to be alive and newly hatched i.e. 18 - 24 hours from the time you put the eggs in the water and you should be hatching 2 or 3 times a day for the first two weeks.

Decap can be used from then on.

 

[MikeW65]

Hi JJ,

The heater in my 5 gallon is a hang on stlye so it has to cover most of it! LOL
The larger the volume the more stable it is also, usually the fry group to a corner or end of the tank near light. Maybe an airstone on a medium flow near the surface gives them a current to swim in?? I think the movement of the live shrimp is what makes them recognise them as food.
Mike

 

[jetajockey]

Thanks for the responses. We'll see what happens here in the next few days. I'm half tempted to put some sand from the ram tank in there now, decisions decisions.

Here's a link to my youtube channel, I have a few vids on there, some of the rams spawning and fighting

http://www.youtube.com/user/jetajockey0#p/a

 

[bigbird]

Hi,

I must admitt that I agree with Bilbo, maybe it is the southern hemisphere but I found that I lost all fry from glass bottom tank. My fry tank have a layer of silica sand, some rocks and a piece of driftwood, 24hours a day all year round. I honestly believe that this setup has enough small foods and bacteria to feed the fry, as I very rarely feed the fry as they seem to get enough from the substrate and suroundings. I have a 80liter fry tank. I also do not remove dead fry or fish for that matter, as I believe leave it as close as nature and it will sort itself out. Dead fry and fish attract other micro-organisms which in turn become food. just my theory. cheers jk :biggrin:

 

[jetajockey]

good point bigbird. I think it's kind of a kick in the rear trying to keep hospital-esque conditions in the fry tanks, what I've found so far is that in order to help the fry survive I am going to have to introduce the little creatures that are already present in a well established system.

I have wigglers again, about 50 or so, I've left the light on their tank on 24/7 in hopes to get some good algae growing. This round, I'm going to keep a very close eye on them to see if they are eating, i have vinegar eels and bbs to throw at them this time, along with egg yolk and (hopefully) an infusoria culture.

After this round I am going to transfer some of the play sand and various bits and bobs out of one of my breeder tanks. My biggest concern is time between the eggs being laid and once they get into the wiggler phase, since I am OCD about getting all of the white eggs out of the mix. I've been using hydrogen peroxide which seems to work pretty good, no major fungus but then again I move out all the white eggs 2-3 times a day.

 

[bigbird]

Hi again,

Just some clarification. I do not leave my light on 24hours a day, but normal 10 hour light set up. I run my fry tank 24hours a day 365 days of the year. By this I wanted to say that like some people, when they more fry and they have grown put, then clean the tank and put it to dry or close the set up. I run my tank 24hours a day, irrespective if i have fry or not in order to maintain the system.
I am a little confussed or cant understand your reply, you have 50wrigglers. Are they in the main breeding tank and then you remove them to another tank ? Because you state you will add sand etc later ? As I suggested before, if you have a spare empty tank, set up up already now with soil, some plants and driftwood etc. Use 30% of your tank water where the fry is and add the rest fresh. let it run as a normal set up with lights etc, then transfer your fry after 2-3 weeks etc. However then later do not switch of this fry tank and keep it running till your next batch. cheers jk

 

[jetajockey]

Hi bigbird,

Sorry I didn't specify. I am running the lights nonstop solely because this particular tank is newly setup, so I'm trying to get some algae built up.

I currently have 3 fry tanks going, two 5's and a 10g. I removed the eggs as soon as they were laid and put them in their own tank. They are wiggling now, but they seem to be bunched together attached to some sort of gunk that came in with the sponge filter I added. Lesson learned, I won't be putting any filtration in the tank until after they become free swimming. It's not fungus, it looks like detritus. Hopefully they'll pull through, I added a few cherry shrimp to help clean some of the gunk up.

If the fry fare well, then in a few weeks I"ll transfer them to one of the other tanks with the other fry that are only about a week ahead of them.

I have several tanks for growout but I need to get more small tanks for the hatching process.

 

[indyplanted]

I have had a similar problem. the blue ram fry made it to about 8 days before they started to disappear. the tank was only a few months old and doesn't have all the mulm that my gold ram tank has. They also seemed to small to eat my micro worms. I've have been feeding the gold ram fry some green water and have put a few big handfuls of java moss in. they are now about 10 days old and seem to be doing alot better than my blue ram fry were at 10 days. both males had been taking care of the fry but had been pounding on the females so they(females) were removed. I'm still very new at this and It's still a learning game for me. I had tried to feed de-capped brine, golden pearls, angel fry food, and micro worms with little success so far. I had seen little fece trails so I sure they have/had been eating something. I have since started a few brine shrimp hatcherys to help out(Which I really didn't want to do). The tanks both have fine sand, sponge filters, and a few small snails.

do you guys think that the parents may have or maybe eating the fry? I have seen them cleaning them but not witnessed them eating the fry. I guess that could still be a problem.

 

[jetajockey]

thanks for the reply! I really want some golds, they are so pretty!

I'm attempting newly hatched BBS when this batch becomes free swimming. I've read that they are bad parents, that's why I've artificially hatched all the eggs I've gotten so far.

 

[indyplanted]

It took both pairs a few goes at it before they quit eating the eggs.