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Can you safely mix nijenssi and elizabethae ?

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
This is very early stage of planning (about 14 months out) but I'm thinking of a tank that is 48x48x18 (lots of area) that has several groups of apistogramma. I intend to run the tank with ph around 6ish and tds around 30ish so the fishes can breed if they so desire. I'll probably have a large group of pygmy cory (probably 25 habrosus) with them and maybe a third group of apistogramma depending on how the initial two group works. I will probably exclude pleco and snail since they tend to eat the apisto eggs but might have a large group of ottos (15?) and a tetra - perhaps lemon or black neon as a upper level dither.
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winter temp would be around 75 and summer 80-81.
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As with all my tanks it will be heavily planted but no co2 injection (worried it would be problematic with the soft water); substrate would likely be soft yellow sand (caribsea sunset gold). I like moonlight but i find that the white substrate is objectionable to some fishes.
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I know that breeding generally doesn't work well with community tank conversely this tank would be quite large with lots of tight hiding spots so mabye...
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Otos are feeding specialists for aufwuchs. While they make good tankmates for Apistos, I doubt the tank will sustain them with enough Aufwuchs, Biofilm and Algae. A group of six might live in a tank that size without starving, provided the tank is running for at least six months before adding them.
Habrosus Cories and Apistos are a desaster in my experience. There is a reason I kept my cories only for two weeks with the Apistos before rehoming the catfish.

With the waterparameters you are aiming at I think heavy planting is less feasable. It may be necessary to use a lot of driftwood and leaf litter to maintain the pH, so the choice of actual aquatic plants is probably limited to epiphytes and floating plants. I for my part have given up on any plants below the upper third of the tank. The water is too dark.

About mixing different species of Apistogramma... I'm on the fence. I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't advise to do it.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
This planned tank is 180 gallons (over 700 liters). Do you really think it could only support 6 ottos ? It won't be blackwater so there will be good light source - there will be some tannish from driftwood. Not sure if i will use peat moss or acid to lower the ph - probably peat moss?
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I answered at about 1 in the morning and I'm not used to non-metric units. Sorry. I was going by cm not by inch for the dimensions.

You may not want blackwater, but the parameters you want are chemically blackwater. Without RO and peat (not peat moss) or a lot of botanical material you won't get there and all that stuff tints the water massively. Straight up acid tends to bring instability to the system.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
I answered at about 1 in the morning and I'm not used to non-metric units. Sorry. I was going by cm not by inch for the dimensions.

You may not want blackwater, but the parameters you want are chemically blackwater. Without RO and peat (not peat moss) or a lot of botanical material you won't get there and all that stuff tints the water massively. Straight up acid tends to bring instability to the system.
Ok. Yea i will definitely be using a 4:1 mix with ro water. Our base water is around 120 tds gh 7 kh 3. I will have a ton of driftwood and put peat in bags behind the filter. I do expect a lot of tint - never used peat before but driftwood tint isn't that bad. I will likely use a pair of chirion wrgb 2 lights so the tank will be well lit. I know in our native water plants grow very well but i am unsure what the lower ph - softer water will do with regards to plant growth. I will mostly stick with greens - definitely a touch of hornworth, frogbit and anacharis - on the bottom various smaller sword plants with perhaps two larger variants in the back. I'll try mexican oak on one side and jungle val on the other with various shades of crypts in the middle and see what grows and adjust. If plants will tolerate the water i will end up with a dense jungle which is my normal style. For filtration i'll use hamburg matten filters in the two back corners. Most of the 'caves' will be tunnels under the driftwood (3 inch substrate) which is what the fishes normally do in my current tanks.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Your tap has similar readings as mine. I use 1.5-2 RO:1 tap, which lowers TDS to 50-60, GH is below 3 and KH below detection level. 4:1 might be unnecessary, or rather, then you can go with straight up 100% RO aswell. And that has little to no nutrients, as expected. I don't know if you can transfer that jungle style to blackwater without using fertilizers, which subverts the low light/low nutrients characteristics of blackwater in my opinion. Usually with BW you have the jungle above or on the surface. I certainly haven't seen anything like it and I think I'm getting around somewhat in the hobby. If you can pull it off without going extra high-tech lights and macrofertilizers I'd be most amazed.

I don't even use peat myself. Only wood, leaves and the like. Thanks to the use of Alder cones the tint can get so dark, even Egeria and Hornwort died off below 15-20cm of depth. What worked great in the lower levels: All Anubias I tried (sure, it always works), some easier Echinodorus and some Bucephalandra. Everything else I had to move up towards the surface or it died.
A friend has the same problem with using peat, almost everything below a certain depth won't do well, and he has some strong lights on his tank.
Right now almost all of the living plant material in my tank is floating Hydrocotyle leucocephala, additionally some Salvinia and I'm running an experiment on Anubias to be grown semi-emerged. Oh, and a Pothos plant emersed in the corner. That's all that's left.

Can't say much about the lights you are going to install, I've been a low tech aquarist all my life, I never even heard of the brand.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
Your tap has similar readings as mine. I use 1.5-2 RO:1 tap, which lowers TDS to 50-60, GH is below 3 and KH below detection level. 4:1 might be unnecessary, or rather, then you can go with straight up 100% RO aswell. And that has little to no nutrients, as expected. I don't know if you can transfer that jungle style to blackwater without using fertilizers, which subverts the low light/low nutrients characteristics of blackwater in my opinion. Usually with BW you have the jungle above or on the surface. I certainly haven't seen anything like it and I think I'm getting around somewhat in the hobby. If you can pull it off without going extra high-tech lights and macrofertilizers I'd be most amazed.

I don't even use peat myself. Only wood, leaves and the like. Thanks to the use of Alder cones the tint can get so dark, even Egeria and Hornwort died off below 15-20cm of depth. What worked great in the lower levels: All Anubias I tried (sure, it always works), some easier Echinodorus and some Bucephalandra. Everything else I had to move up towards the surface or it died.
A friend has the same problem with using peat, almost everything below a certain depth won't do well, and he has some strong lights on his tank.
Right now almost all of the living plant material in my tank is floating Hydrocotyle leucocephala, additionally some Salvinia and I'm running an experiment on Anubias to be grown semi-emerged. Oh, and a Pothos plant emersed in the corner. That's all that's left.

Can't say much about the lights you are going to install, I've been a low tech aquarist all my life, I never even heard of the brand.
They are about 1.5x brigther than fluval 3.0. I'm not really trying ot make a black water tank as much as a lower ph tank to allow the apistogramma to breed if they can. I might be better with 1:2 ro which would get the tds down to 40. I would use root tabs and iron additive for plants with occasional water column fertilizer if required. I'm not a purist. I just don't have any experience with peat or water condition of this sort. I'll try a number of different plants to see if anything does well. While most of the swords are smaller variants (12ish-14ish inch) they should be able to get light once they get some height. The hard part will be getting them started.
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Anyway ultimately i'd still like some opinion on if these apisto can co-exist. I'd really like 3 apisto species that are unable to cross breed and I might as well as go with species that can take advantage of the lower ph. I will have another tank with hong and borelli with 'normal' tap water. I'm less interested in them breeding in that tank but i might use a 20 long or 10 as a breeding tank if I end up with a nice pair.

Anyway I'm hopeful that a tank of this size it can support several groups of apisto without confrontation. My limited experience has been that the apisto are not that aggressive and usually use show than force to maintain their area but I know some species are more aggressive.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
They are about 1.5x brigther than fluval 3.0. I'm not really trying ot make a black water tank as much as a lower ph tank to allow the apistogramma to breed if they can. I might be better with 1:2 ro which would get the tds down to 40. I would use root tabs and iron additive for plants with occasional water column fertilizer if required. I'm not a purist. I just don't have any experience with peat or water condition of this sort. I'll try a number of different plants to see if anything does well. While most of the swords are smaller variants (12ish-14ish inch) they should be able to get light once they get some height. The hard part will be getting them started.
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Anyway ultimately i'd still like some opinion on if these apisto can co-exist. I'd really like 3 apisto species that are unable to cross breed and I might as well as go with species that can take advantage of the lower ph. I will have another tank with hong and borelli with 'normal' tap water. I'm less interested in them breeding in that tank but i might use a 20 long or 10 as a breeding tank if I end up with a nice pair.

Anyway I'm hopeful that a tank of this size it can support several groups of apisto without confrontation. My limited experience has been that the apisto are not that aggressive and usually use show than force to maintain their area but I know some species are more aggressive.

As I said, I understand you don't want blackwater per se, but this way you will end up with it. The alternative is using diluted acids and that method is in my opinion an invitation to fluctuation and instability.
Concerning the plants, yes, root tabs and micronutrient ferts are the maximum I would use in that environment.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
If you are seriously interested in breeding these 2 species the best way is with 2 55 gallon tanks. Breeding multiple species in 1 tank leads to not being able to separate juveniles from one another.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
If you are seriously interested in breeding these 2 species the best way is with 2 55 gallon tanks. Breeding multiple species in 1 tank leads to not being able to separate juveniles from one another.
I'm 1/2 serious - i mean if they breed - I'll let the frys mature until they are old enough to distinguish but this obviously would not be a dedicated breeding tank. I will have some 20 longs in the basement i can use for dedicated breeding if i go that route. I guess the question is more along the lines if these species can co-exist without cross breeding. I.e, they have similar requirements for water conditions and are not super aggressive. I know the nij are pretty passive so it is more of a question around the elizabethae for which i have not found a huge amount of information.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
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Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
No, they will not cross. I find that breeding nijsseni pairs are much more aggressive when defending eggs or fry than elizabethae. Nijsseni form spawning pairs and both parents defend the brood territory. Elizabethae, being a polygamous species, only the female defends her brood territory - even from her male partner.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
No, they will not cross. I find that breeding nijsseni pairs are much more aggressive when defending eggs or fry than elizabethae. Nijsseni form spawning pairs and both parents defend the brood territory. Elizabethae, being a polygamous species, only the female defends her brood territory - even from her male partner.
Ok thanks. My hope or thought is the tank is large enough for 2 or 3 complete independent breeding areas. I might be mistaken but that is my hope. I had nijsseni and they did lay eggs several times before the male developed droopsy (the female is still doing fine). I chose to not replace the male since my water is ph 7 gh 7 kh 3 and until i move i cannot adjust it easily. I also had hongsloi in the tank (this is a 29) and they never bothered them - the female had a corner and if someone entered it she would flare at them and they would leave but no real violence. About 4 months after the male died she stopped caring if others entered the territory and mostly she just hangs out. She is a lovely fish as such things go but i think it is unfair to get another male until i can provide them a proper home (and i do realize that nij. are picky about partners so there is that issue).
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In general i am an opportunistic breeder. I like watching the fishes behavior and raise their brood but i'm not serious about them breeding and if the frys do make it i tend to give them away when they are an appropriate age. I have a breeding pair of angels in a community tank and i have 'stolen' the wrigglers now and then to practice raising them and have been successful and then given them away as in my current residence (condo) I don't have the tank space to keep more fishes. I am aware with the apistogramma it is best to leave the frys with the parents and just add supplement food for the frys.
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Anyway thank you for your response. I will look for a potential third leg for the tank but maybe not.
 

Sordbodan

Member
Messages
74
Location
Toronto Canada
Ok. Yea i will definitely be using a 4:1 mix with ro water. Our base water is around 120 tds gh 7 kh 3. I will have a ton of driftwood and put peat in bags behind the filter. I do expect a lot of tint - never used peat before but driftwood tint isn't that bad. I will likely use a pair of chirion wrgb 2 lights so the tank will be well lit. I know in our native water plants grow very well but i am unsure what the lower ph - softer water will do with regards to plant growth. I will mostly stick with greens - definitely a touch of hornworth, frogbit and anacharis - on the bottom various smaller sword plants with perhaps two larger variants in the back. I'll try mexican oak on one side and jungle val on the other with various shades of crypts in the middle and see what grows and adjust. If plants will tolerate the water i will end up with a dense jungle which is my normal style. For filtration i'll use hamburg matten filters in the two back corners. Most of the 'caves' will be tunnels under the driftwood (3 inch substrate) which is what the fishes normally do in my current tanks.
I assume Chirion wrgb2 means Chihiros WRGB2. If so, they are supposed to be quire good. I have the older rgb version. One of those at 16" depth creates 40 PAR, which is medium light. Perfect for me since I found high lights to be too much work - stem plants grow like crazy and require weekly trimming, Anubias etc. get covered in algae. WRGB2 would probably push you into the high light territory. You can always dim them of course.

Also, low PH (around 6.5), low TDS (50-150) with low KH (0-2), are ideal conditions for most plants. In fact, aqua soils such as ADA Amazonia target those parameters. They include humic acids to acid buffer the water without discolouring it. I use pure RO water with Tropica aquasoil and my ph ends up around 6.4 with a KH of 0. In your case, you can also add a GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium to raise your TDS, if you wish. I use Equilibrium to keep my TDS between 150-200.

The combination of the Chihiros and the water parameters you mention should allow you to grow just about any plant you want. <2hr aquarist states>: Generally speaking, most plants have an easier time in softer, low KH water. If you have a GH of 5 and a KH of 1 you have suitable water to grow 99% of commercially available aquatic plant species with ease). There are a very small number of plants that are exceptions, such as Pogostemon Helferi which likes hard water (high KH or high Ph). I tried and failed to grow P. Helferi in my tanks, so my experience backs that. Unfortunately another hard water plant is the jungle val. Apparently, they do grow in soft water, albeit slowly. I have never tried it personally, so I can't speak from experience.
 

Samala

Active Member
Messages
99
Location
Oviedo, FL
True jungle val, V. americana, will struggle in soft water. Its very common in Florida but we have limestone aquifers for the most part and TDS never much below 200ppm, except in rainy season when the flush of rainwater brings us closer to 170ppm or so. That's the time of year you generally see die off and shedding from val (also Eleocharis and Sagittaria). (Could be heat stress in addition to softer water.) I've tried it in tanks with TDS under 100ppm without luck. Beautiful big plants but they, like seagrasses, seem to love carbonates.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
I assume Chirion wrgb2 means Chihiros WRGB2. If so, they are supposed to be quire good. I have the older rgb version. One of those at 16" depth creates 40 PAR, which is medium light. Perfect for me since I found high lights to be too much work - stem plants grow like crazy and require weekly trimming, Anubias etc. get covered in algae. WRGB2 would probably push you into the high light territory. You can always dim them of course.

Also, low PH (around 6.5), low TDS (50-150) with low KH (0-2), are ideal conditions for most plants. In fact, aqua soils such as ADA Amazonia target those parameters. They include humic acids to acid buffer the water without discolouring it. I use pure RO water with Tropica aquasoil and my ph ends up around 6.4 with a KH of 0. In your case, you can also add a GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium to raise your TDS, if you wish. I use Equilibrium to keep my TDS between 150-200.

The combination of the Chihiros and the water parameters you mention should allow you to grow just about any plant you want. <2hr aquarist states>: Generally speaking, most plants have an easier time in softer, low KH water. If you have a GH of 5 and a KH of 1 you have suitable water to grow 99% of commercially available aquatic plant species with ease). There are a very small number of plants that are exceptions, such as Pogostemon Helferi which likes hard water (high KH or high Ph). I tried and failed to grow P. Helferi in my tanks, so my experience backs that. Unfortunately another hard water plant is the jungle val. Apparently, they do grow in soft water, albeit slowly. I have never tried it personally, so I can't speak from experience.
Yes on the lights. I grow jungle val now in my 120 with tap water which is gh 7 kh 3 (tds 120) - and it grow quite fast and is annoying. I actually want it to grow a lot slower. I will likely use inert substrate though you have me thinking maybe i want to reconsider that. My concern with the soil such as you suggested is over time it becomes inert and i'm left to dealing with an inert substrate so perhaps i should start with inert substrate and have my procedure down pat (thoughts?) ?
 

Sordbodan

Member
Messages
74
Location
Toronto Canada
True jungle val, V. americana, will struggle in soft water. Its very common in Florida but we have limestone aquifers for the most part and TDS never much below 200ppm, except in rainy season when the flush of rainwater brings us closer to 170ppm or so. That's the time of year you generally see die off and shedding from val (also Eleocharis and Sagittaria). (Could be heat stress in addition to softer water.) I've tried it in tanks with TDS under 100ppm without luck. Beautiful big plants but they, like seagrasses, seem to love carbonates.
I did not realize Eleocharis is a hard water plant as well. I tried to grow the mini variety, but it just never multiplies for me (doesn't die either, just stays as planted). Maybe this explains it.
 

Sordbodan

Member
Messages
74
Location
Toronto Canada
Yes on the lights. I grow jungle val now in my 120 with tap water which is gh 7 kh 3 (tds 120) - and it grow quite fast and is annoying. I actually want it to grow a lot slower. I will likely use inert substrate though you have me thinking maybe i want to reconsider that. My concern with the soil such as you suggested is over time it becomes inert and i'm left to dealing with an inert substrate so perhaps i should start with inert substrate and have my procedure down pat (thoughts?) ?
You identified my main dilemma. I am consolidating everything into a tank, and a holdup is that I can't decide on what to use as a substrate. I love the way you can plant in it. Also, aqua Soil is not actually inert. It is fired clay, and it has high CEC. That means it will hold fertilizers and slowly release them. When you buy the soil it is fully loaded with fertilizers. Once the fertilizers run out, you can replenish by adding fertilizer tabs. In this aspect, it is a lot like Eco Complete - though Eco complete does not start out with any fertilizers.

Where it differs from eco complete is that aqua soil contains humid acid, which lowers KH. My experience is that using tap water with a KH of 4-5 (my tap water), the KH buffering capacity ran out in about 6-9 months. Hence I switched to pure RO water. I have had my main tank running for 14 months now, and it is still buffering just fine, with 50% water changes weekly. As to how much longer this will go, I do not know. Number of internet sources says the humid acids will be depleted in about 2 years. And at that point, you'd be back to square one as far as KH lowering is concerned.

I can see 3 options for replenishing KH lowering. One is what @MacZ and you were talking above by adding peat moss, almond leaves etc. As far as I know, that colours the water. The additional problem I see with this approach is that it is hard to precisely control the amount of acid being released, so you may end up with fluctuating KH/PH.

The other method is to use RO water and add a combination of Acid and KH buffers, such as those by Seachem to achieve a target Ph/KH level. This seems more accurate and does not have the coloration effect. But I have never tried it, so I am really unsure about any potential issues. I would be tempted to try this though.

The third option is to slowly replace the aquasoil - people suggested replacing 1 cup every few weeks to ensure minimal ammonia spikes. Seems like a lot of work.

Of course the last option is to tear down and restart every 2 years.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
You identified my main dilemma. I am consolidating everything into a tank, and a holdup is that I can't decide on what to use as a substrate. I love the way you can plant in it. Also, aqua Soil is not actually inert. It is fired clay, and it has high CEC. That means it will hold fertilizers and slowly release them. When you buy the soil it is fully loaded with fertilizers. Once the fertilizers run out, you can replenish by adding fertilizer tabs. In this aspect, it is a lot like Eco Complete - though Eco complete does not start out with any fertilizers.

Where it differs from eco complete is that aqua soil contains humid acid, which lowers KH. My experience is that using tap water with a KH of 4-5 (my tap water), the KH buffering capacity ran out in about 6-9 months. Hence I switched to pure RO water. I have had my main tank running for 14 months now, and it is still buffering just fine, with 50% water changes weekly. As to how much longer this will go, I do not know. Number of internet sources says the humid acids will be depleted in about 2 years. And at that point, you'd be back to square one as far as KH lowering is concerned.

I can see 3 options for replenishing KH lowering. One is what @MacZ and you were talking above by adding peat moss, almond leaves etc. As far as I know, that colours the water. The additional problem I see with this approach is that it is hard to precisely control the amount of acid being released, so you may end up with fluctuating KH/PH.

The other method is to use RO water and add a combination of Acid and KH buffers, such as those by Seachem to achieve a target Ph/KH level. This seems more accurate and does not have the coloration effect. But I have never tried it, so I am really unsure about any potential issues. I would be tempted to try this though.

The third option is to slowly replace the aquasoil - people suggested replacing 1 cup every few weeks to ensure minimal ammonia spikes. Seems like a lot of work.

Of course the last option is to tear down and restart every 2 years.
From what @MacZ has said in other threads the peat has a buffering property - unlike acid - there is a ceiling and you can't have 'too much'. However it does of course 'run out' and has to be replaced or (if possible) recharged. I guess the same is true with acid but the acid is lower ph so you have to measure it carefully but naturally it wouldn't make the water lower than its base ph (unless there is a chemical reaction with some mineral in the the water and it explodes or otherwise does something weird). Anyway I'll probably go with an inert substrate - maybe seachem flourite (black clay) or caribsea sunset gold and just use root tabs. I hope to run this tank 10 to 15 years and not have to break it down every two years ;)
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My hope is that the population in the tank is self perpetuating. My cory breeds reguarly (though I never capture the eggs - i did see a baby cory once but no clue what became of it); but i ahve too many pleco and snails in their tank to give them much of a chance. I've been slowly feeding my mystery snails to my loaches and hopefully by the time i move i will not have a snail problem any longer.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
I can see 3 options for replenishing KH lowering. One is what @MacZ and you were talking above by adding peat moss, almond leaves etc. As far as I know, that colours the water. The additional problem I see with this approach is that it is hard to precisely control the amount of acid being released, so you may end up with fluctuating KH/PH.
It is actually extraordinarily stable: The decomposing plant matter buffers in lower pH ranges. I see no fluctuations beyond the day/night fluctuations that are present anyway. I also have no fluctuations with waterchanges.

It's also relatively cheap and low maintenance: I don't have to add something with every waterchange, making it failsafe and more cost efficient.

Yes, it's somewhat inaccurate, but within a safe range. The only thing you can't control is to achieve a certain pH at a certain time. It can take weeks until the pH has gone down to a certain level.

And yes, you have tannins. The tint can be somewhat controlled, when only using botanicals, as easy as doing 1-2 waterchanges.

Peat has the downside to be the pricier version of the same method, where you have to replace it every 3-5 weeks. Buying in bulk makes the amount needed in a year quite affordable. Leaves and other botanical items can be collected for free, making the necessity to buy them minimal unless you want to start a tank between January and September or live in the middle of a big city.

But then again, it's not a quick-and-easy method. Rather a slow-but-steady method, for people that keep biotope tanks and only casual breeders at best. Never stated anything else. Also the method needs to be done with RO, as the acids are quite weak. Working against existing KH in normal tap water the method doesn't get the pH further down than maybe 6.5, effectively.

The other method is to use RO water and add a combination of Acid and KH buffers, such as those by Seachem to achieve a target Ph/KH level. This seems more accurate and does not have the coloration effect. But I have never tried it, so I am really unsure about any potential issues. I would be tempted to try this though.
That method has more downsides:
It's inherently inefficient. You take water sans KH (hence succeptible to pH-changes via H+-ion source in the first place) and add KH building minerals again.

It's as inaccurate as the other methods. The acid and the buffers both do not give you instant changes in pH, so after a few hours the parameters may have settled to a different reading than you originally wanted. Some buffers are also designed to keep a steady 7.0 pH. Overdosing one or the other additive is possible. Premixing in a container of an appropriate volume to do waterchanges from is advised. This can be quite impractical and requires additional equipment.

It's high maintenance: Since you only use the buffer to dial in a certain pH, there is no low pH-buffering capacity left, meaning this mixing and matching has to be done each waterchange.

It's not economical: The additives have to be supplied regularly and unless you know how to handle dangerous chemicals, better stay with the pricey prediluted products from the store.

In short: It's the definition of pH-chasing, which is one of the worst things you can do.

But yes, the water stays clear of tannins.

The third option is to slowly replace the aquasoil - people suggested replacing 1 cup every few weeks to ensure minimal ammonia spikes. Seems like a lot of work.
Why would you want ammonia spikes at all? Ok, in low pH it's less acutely dangerous, but it's still unhealthy for the animals. The method is also pricey as the soil is sold for insulting prices, considering it's basically a waste product of peat production. So effectively it's concentrated (and sometimes artificial) peat.


With all methods you can't bypass using RO water. Using tap (read: with KH) is just inefficient and can lead to adding dangerous amounts of whatever you use to lower the pH.
There is a method that professional breeders sometimes use, that involves pre-treating large quantities RO only with acids and using this for waterchanges, while still having botanicals or peat (as substrate) in the tanks to buffer. Basically a best-of-both-worlds-scenario. But rather a lot of work and inefficient for home-use.
 

MacZ

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unlike acid - there is a ceiling and you can't have 'too much'.

Not exactly. Decomposing material uses up Oxygen, so adding too much at once can be detrimental. But the amount of weak acids released from the material can't make the pH drop unsafely fast.
 

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