Breed your A. sp. Kelleri because...

[Mike Wise]

there is a good possibility that they will not be imported again anytime soon. My reliable source informed me that the A. sp. Kelleri/Diamond Face recently exported commercially out of Peru were in fact NOT COLLECTED FROM THE RIO JUTAI!!! The fish were collected in the same area as Bruno Keller's original fish - near Leticia in Colombia. So, let's forget the Jutai from now on. I suspect the collector almost got caught smuggling fish to Peru and doesn't want to go back.

On another note there is a chance that the Pink Apisto (A eunotus Shahuaya) of the early 1980s might be back in the trade soon. I sent a map of the known collecting site for this fish to a collector who is working in the area. I received photos of an apisto from the same general area. The fish shows pink highlights, but aren't as pink as I remember the Shahuaya population. The fish are not as deep bodied either, but this could be because they are not well fed. Hopefully more info to come.

 

[Mark]

Hi Mike,

I already mentioned it earlier. The Jutai caca will probably be the same species as my caca from leticia too. But you said you were sure the fish came from Jutai. How come you say they are not from Jutai but from Leticia?

Do you know for 100% sure that the "diamond face" is from Leticia (and the same as my sp. Kelleri Leticia) or is it still possible the fish do not come from Leticia but a different stream?

I am asking because we have both the collected forms here in Holland and we need to be sure before we mix the two. I hope you can give some extra info so we can be sure (you can send PM too)

Mark

 

[Mike Wise]

Mark, A common problem with new fish is that too few are distributed in the hobby and even fewer photos are available. It often takes a year or more before we get enough information to properly identify a fish as a new species. Sometimes we never learn where it actually is found. When I first saw photos of the Diamond Face form, there were no good photos of females that showed a lyre tail. At that time, I wasn't sure that they were the same species. I listed them in my personal species list as "A. cf. sp. Kelleri (Jutai)" and the distribution as "Rio Jutai(?)" because I wasn't certain of the collecting locality. Still, I used the only information that I had when I originally discussed these fish. I know that I wrote about my "problem" of this collecting locality in several emails to hobbyists over the past few months. I believe I even mention the Jutai as an unusual place for Peruvian collectors to collect fish. Now that I have photos of both males and females of both the Kelleri and Diamond Face forms, I see very little difference other than minor color variations. I now am more certain that they are the same species and only different populations. This is similar to A. barlowi, which has different color populations in nearby streams in the Río Ampiyacu.

I also know the collector of the Diamond Face form. I met him briefly while in Peru. I also know that he often hides his actual collecting localities and gives misleading localities - especially for the more commercially valuable species. My source is very close to the collector and has worked with him for many years. To tell the truth, I always have trusted my source more than any other collector. If my source tells me that the collector told him that he did not collected his Diamond Face in the Rio Jutai (Brazil), but near Leticia (Colombia), then I believe him. The collector told my source only because he couldn't collect the fish anymore and had no reason to keep his general location secret. The Leticia location seems much more logical to me, too. Kelleri was originally collected there. It is easier to move fish across the Amazon from Colombia into Peru (I did it) than from several hundred kilometers inside Brazil. Right now I would be 99% confident that the Diamond Face fish came from somewhere near Leticia. I personally would keep the 2 populations separate, but I'm a bit obsessive. On the other hand, there is no actual reason not to mix fish from the 2 populations if necessary.

As for the cacatuoides-group fish found among the Diamond Face/Kelleri, we just have one specimen. It might be a new species, but we don't have enough information to make a positive identification. There is another apisto species, besides A. sp. Kelleri, only found near Leticia (A. sp. Nadelstreifen). Perhaps there are more. Perhaps this cacatuoides-group fish is another. Without more information, we just don't know.

 

[Mark]

Hi Mike,

That makes it clear! I have always thought the fish came from the same (or almost the same) river. And using false site names is a well known problem. In Holland we were looking for differences between the two and couldn't find any (maybe the cheekstripe). Therefor most Dutch aquarists already considered them as the same species. We didn't mix them and we won't do, but now we know the status of the two.

You use the titel "Breed your Kelleri.." Now we know the collecting site is in Leticia it should be possible to collect more. It's not in Brazil so collecting is not banned, transporting to Peru or Colombia is good (you say) so I would expect lots of fish of this species to come onto the market. Why do you say to breed them?

Mark

 

[Erik82]

It's good to hear to have some clarity about this fish. I also had the " kelleri Diamond face". Now I have the kelleri in my tank that were collected by a hobbyist (Ernst) near Letitia. I'm also curious why we should bread them. I know this ain't the essayist fish to bread, most of the fry are dying due larvae stadium. I suspect the mother is eating them mostly.

 

[Mike Wise]

I say breed what we have now because it is unlikely that Kelleri will be imported commercially again. We probably only will get new stock from hobbyist-collectors who go and collect them themselves. I must admit that the transportation of fish from Colombia into Peru is illegal in both countries. I don't think that either country is particularly concerned about a hobbyist taking (smuggling?) a few dozen fish, but commercial quantities is another story. Still, what happens if a hobbyist is caught "moving" fish across international boundaries? You break the law; you take your chances. All it takes to ruin your day is to be caught by an overzealous policeman.

 

[Mark]

Hi mike you're right about the smuggling, but there are also fish exported from Colombia. In that case the fish don't need to cross boundaries and could be exported commercially. I think it won't be that easy, but I don't see the problems. Hope you can tell me.

Mark















i

 

[Mike Wise]

There actually is a collecting station in Leticia. Our discussion with the operater, however, left us unimpressed. He was more interested in shipping "bread and butter" tetras and catfish than trying something new. We collected an amazing little knifefish (long snout and long thin tail) when we were there. It would make an interesting addition to a community aquarium of smaller species. We gave it to our collector, who showed it to the exporter. He wasn't interested. This isn't surprising actually. Most exporters are more interested in shipping well known and popular fish instead of something new.

 

[Microman]

Rather unimpressed....

Well Mike after reading your recent information it leaves me feeling rather deflated about the reputation of possibly one of the most respected Apisto collectors in Peru who without doubt has discovered more new species in recent years than many i know. As you know he told us unreservedly that these fish were collected in the Rio Jutai, and who are we to think otherwise, you know the chap as well as we do.....
I am also a little dismayed because i myself was adamant after seeing 100s of specimens last October 09 in Fransiscos tanks that we were dealing with the same fish that Bruno Keller collected in 2008. I thought i was fighting a losing battle with this ID because even after showing pics of females with prominent lyretails and males with prominent red facial markings comparisons of simple colour variants of A.barlowi were mentioned by some well respected aquarists and the ID of A.sp.Kelleri seemed a no no by many well respected Apisto enthusiasts..
I will be emailing the collector to clear up this mess and see what he says about the actual collection location now it seems out in the open.
Anyway on the plus side my fish have now bred and i have a nice clutch of 20 or so free swimming fry and luckily Tom was over here to witness the female mouthbrooding.
Mark...
Male

Female mouthbrooding

 

[Tom C]

Amazing!

........Anyway on the plus side my fish have now bred and i have a nice clutch of 20 or so free swimming fry and luckily Tom was over here to witness the female mouthbrooding.

After having witnessed the mouthbrooding in Mark's tank, I brought home some A. sp. Kelleri.
One of the pairs are now breeding.......
The female used her mouth to move the larvae into a small pit in the sand, where they have been since! No signs at all of any mouthbrooding!

 

[Tom C]

and even more amazing.....

Today I noticed that the female of my other pair of A. sp. Kelleri was chasing the male away in a rather intense manner.
And she did that while mouthbrooding!

The differences between the two pairs:

The pair with the non-mouthbrooding female:
Tank: 85 liters (70x35x35cm)
Other fish in the tank: 20 small youngsters of Nannostomus marginatus and one pair of Copella vilmae
Plants: Some floating plants, a couple of small Echinodorus,and some Cabomba aquatica.
pH: 4,6 Conductivity: 102 microSiemens/cm Temp.: 26,7 degrees C (80,0 F)

The pair with the mouthbrooding female:
Tank: 160 liters (100x40x40 cm)
Other fish in the tank: none
Plants: Some floating plants, a couple of large Echinodorus
pH: 5,6 Conductivity: 90 microSiemens/cm Temp.: 25,7 degrees C (78.3 F)

Both tanks have fine sand, wood, and peat filtered black-water.
The water movement is approximately the same.
The length of the day is 30 minutes shorter in the tank where mouthbrooding takes place.
The food is the same (Black mosquito-larvae and fresh BBS)

I'm looking forward to see if the number of fry is equal.......

 

[Mike Wise]

It looks like Kelleri is just like A. barlowi. They can brood both ways. Maybe it's due to how the female feels. I would think that mouthbrooding would be more common in tanks with other fish, which is the opposite of yours. This variation in brooding method indicates that mouthbrooding is a fairly recent mode of behavior in these species. Environmental effects on mode of brooding would make a very interesting research project/graduate degree thesis.

 

[Tom C]

......I would think that mouthbrooding would be more common in tanks with other fish....

Yes, so would I! A big surprise...

....Environmental effects on mode of brooding would make a very interesting research project/graduate degree thesis.

Yes, that would be a VERY interesting project. When will you begin, Mike? :biggrin:

I could see my non-mouthbrooding female with approximately 25 free-swimming fry today.

The male is obviously bored, having not much to do, as the female keeps all the other fish at great distance.

Yawn wide !

 

[Tom C]

I could have a better look at the non-mouthbrooding female with her fry today. The number of fry is, as far as I was able to see, approximately 50!
No wonder she couldn't take all these in her mouth.

Yet another factor that may affect the female's choice of mouthbrooding or not mouthbrooding; the number of eggs/larvae.
.

 

[Erik82]

That's a huge number of fry! The experience here in the Netherlands is thats this species is hard to bread. Mostly we suspect the mother of eating their larvae. Then, when the larvae are swimming still hard to grow up a lot of youngsters. I have had one young fish of 2 cm after 5 - 6 times having eggs, but my C. notohpthalmus at him.

What are your water conditions Tom?

 

[Tom C]

...The experience here in the Netherlands is thats this species is hard to bread. Mostly we suspect the mother of eating their larvae. Then, when the larvae are swimming still hard to grow up a lot of youngsters.......

This makes it even more exciting to watch how this develops!

What are your water conditions Tom?

As I wrote in post number 11:
pH: 4,6 Conductivity: 102 microSiemens/cm Temp.: 26,7 degrees C (80,0 F)
(peat filtered black-water)

 

[Erik82]

Ah, sorry missed that one..

 

[pipokoeie]

Ah, sorry missed that one..

i have the pair from Wouter,, and a female from Mark,,
and i'm from the Netherlands,,
by me fry swimming free about 5 days from that pair,,
the numbers off that fry is about 20 - 25,,
the water that i use is pure osmose filterd over peat and has a ph 5.2
and a temp off 26 degrees
and a kh 0

i have the male today switch over too the female from Mark,,
i hope they are not that monogaam what i read abouth them,,
regards Tom
edit sorry for my bad englisch

 

[Tom C]

Ah, sorry ...

Don't be, Erik!
Do you have any theories about why the fry don't make it?
Do you leave both parents with the fry?
Small or large tanks?
Any dither fish or target fish?
Gravel or sand?

...by me fry swimming free about 5 days from that pair,,

Nice, pipokoeie!
And welcome to the forum! (your nick makes me curious; does it mean anything particular?)

......the water that i use is pure osmose filterd over peat and has a ph 5.2 and a temp off 26 degrees and a kh 0

When I was in Leticia in 2008 (with Mike), where I presume this species comes from, I measured the water in every small stream where we collected fish. Most of them had a pH between 4,6 and 5,7, and a Conductivity between 7 and 46 microSiemens/cm (very, very soft), so I guess your water should be perfect for them.
.....

....i hope they are not that monogaam what i read abouth them,,

Do you mean monogamous in the sense that a male won't breed with another female, if the first one is removed? Is that a common experience/opinion in your country?

...sorry for my bad englisch

I'm not English speaking either, and I understand you very well!

Cheers,

 

[Erik82]

Don't be, Erik!
Do you have any theories about why the fry don't make it?
Do you leave both parents with the fry?
Small or large tanks?
Any dither fish or target fish?
Gravel or sand?

I don't have any theories. Maybe there were to much fish in my tank. My EC is low around 50 -100, pH not very low 6.5, KH 1, GH 2. They are now swimming in my 160*50*50 tank. They have had eggs when they were alone in that tank with 3 L129, 3 Sturisoma sp aff festivum and about 20 Moenkhausia pittieri (so pretty much target fish/ dither fish). Both parents were in y tank. I don't think it's smart to remove the male. I heard from an other person the male was mouth-breeding too! Saw the pictures also. Also in my tank the male was defending the fry. Mostly when the female couldn't handle it alone. Then the male was coming to hunt the Hypancistrus that left smartly. The kelleri is a pretty aggressive fish against others when having young stars. My tank is decorated with big rocks, a lot of wood, some hydrocleys, a lot coconut chells. The bottom is decorated with sand (0.4 - 0.7 mm) and at some places mixed up with gravel ( 1 till 3 mm)

After having some bad result breeding the kelleri i decided to change a couple with new WC. These fishes were very small and still growing to adult now. I don't expect eggs from the kelleri in this tank because there are some more cichlids in this tank i need to remove (160*50*50):
- couple A. iniridae
- couple A. sp kelleri
- 5 C. notophthalmus
- 3 Sturisoma sp aff festivum
- 3 Hypancistrus debilittera

I am still waiting at my 6 new tanks (100*50*40). When i have these tanks ill try to breed them again.

Some movies of my tank:
http://www.youtube.com/user/1982bakker#p/a/u/0/-6XyG56a7w8

http://www.youtube.com/user/1982bakker#p/a/u/1/cTTBvz13-kQ

http://www.youtube.com/user/1982bakker#p/a/u/2/je1jG1yIcK8

besides, the Guianacara geayi you may see were not in my tank during breeding kelleri.