Big Suprise: Borelli male turned to be female Viejita

[javoski]

Hi. I´m reading here for almost a year .... what a community u build! Thank you!
That´s my 1st post here, as I would like to share a moment of superb joy.

I´m keeping 4 male apistos in my 50g gallon (200 liters) planted tank since august 2005: 1 cackatoo, 1 viejita, 1 non-identified and a borelli (in order of arrival in the tank).

The non-identified was bought as a Borelli, in the biggest and most respected internet shop in Brazil. I was deeply disapointed when it arrived: no color, no finnage. Even as it was a juvenile (as stated by the site) I kept little hope that it would turn in a beautiful borelli. One month later, in a LFS, I bought a true and gorgeus borelli.

Sometimes the Viejita chases the Borelli with no consequences ... but everything was in peace. Til ten days ago, when the attacks begun to become constant ... I was worried, wondering which one I would take away: the shy borelli or the agresive viejita. In the meantime, the grey specimen, bought as a Borelli, kept growing steadly, but had no resemblance to a borelli or even a male specimen.

To my surprise and joy, when I arrived at home yesterday, the grey specimen was dressed in yellow! And was guarding heavily one of the 2 coconut caves with java moss I have. And more: it was courting the viejita! In the scene I was able to enjoy, the viejita kept steady while the female danced close to him, like she was gently cleaning/brushing his body with her anal fin ... and them they retreat to the coconut cave, where I can see little, as it is surround by a dense curtain of tenellus amano.

Now I wonder if I already have eggs ?!!!
I was plannig setting up another planted tank (20 gallons) to a breeding pair or a small harem. I already bought the filter ... but only the filter. Now I have to hurry ...

The pair look okay ... they are really defending the surroundings of the cave, especially against the corys. I´m anxious to arrive at home.

Any comment or advice is welcome ... specially a positive ID on the fish.
I was unable to make decent photos yesterday.

The couple together, 4 or 5 months ago, much before they begin to date. At this time, in fact, the female was suposed to be a male borelli

Male, yesterday.

Yellow female, yesterday, awful photo

Male months ago

 

[Mike Wise]

Your male "A. viejita" looks more like a Red-shoulder/Rotrücken A. macmasteri than a true A. viejita. Of course, it might be a domestic cross. Either way, your fish are beautiful.

 

[javoski]

Mike, thanks a lot for your attention!
Thanks for the compliment but I have to say that the male has a malformation in the right side of the mouth, which cant be seem in those photos. But I love him :tongue:

The dating frenesi stopped after 3 days. The female turned grey again e begun to swin all around the aquarium ... finally leaving the surrounds of the coconut cave.

On the other hand, the male - who was behaving like the aquarium king - completely disapeared. I found him hiding behind a plastic vase I have with some zosts.

Unfortunely, I have no clue about what happened, because the cave is surrouded by a lot of tenellus amano.
But I´m pretty sure I had eggs, as the female guarded the cave ferosciously. I will never know what happended: if the eggs couldn´t be fertilized or if they die of fungus, or if I had fry ... which I don´t believe as the couple was able to defend their nest pretty well.

Do you recongize the female as a macmasteri also?

 

[Mike Wise]

The photo is not clear enough to identify the fish. Sorry.

 

[javoski]

just took those photos ... no more yellow at all.

 

[Apistt_ed]

I might be wrong here, but on first glance I did not recognize your fish to be a female macmasteri/viejita. The abdominal markings are never seen in my female macmasteri and the caudal spot looks very different as well. The caudal fin on your fish also has patterning and I've never seen that in A. macmasteri. john

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree with John, this isn't a macmasteri-group species. It is an agassizii-lineage species (note the tiny blue patch on the corner of the upper lip). I think it is A. gibbiceps.

 

[P.W.]

I agree with you Mike, and in fact It looks like a Gibbiceps male?

 

[javoski]

That´s weird! What a turn of events.
But I totally agree with you all. Just took a look at Gibbiceps page at thekrib (with nice stuff by MIke there also) and I really recognize my fish as the same pictured there.
As pointed by P.W., the pictures above, with the fish dressed in grey, really looked like a male Gibbiceps.
But it can´t be a male when it became yellow like in the photo below (took in the 3rd day of mating frenesi), can be? It´s the same fish for sure (the grey and the yellow).

In case it is a female Gibbiceps, is that expected (the mating behavior with the viejita)? Is it possible that they produce fry together?

In case it´s a female Gibbiceps, may it produce fry with a agassizi male?
Thanks a lot for your attention and help!

 

[Apistt_ed]

But it can´t be a male when it became yellow like in the photo below (took in the 3rd day of mating frenesi), can be? It´s the same fish for sure (the grey and the yellow).

In case it is a female Gibbiceps, is that expected (the mating behavior with the viejita)? Is it possible that they produce fry together?

In case it´s a female Gibbiceps, may it produce fry with a agassizi male?
Thanks a lot for your attention and help!

Apistos do have "sleeper" males who do, in the presence of the dominant male will turn yellow like females to curb aggression away from themselves. I take this to be the case with your fish.

If it were a female gibbiceps, which I don't believe it is, the macmasteri and it won't be able to have any viable fry because they are part of two different cladistic groups. Reasons I don't believe it is a female is because I see the caudal fin has patterning, which is distinctive of males and is never seen in females.

In the case that it is a female, it would not be able to have viable fry with aggassizii either because the aggassizii and gibbiceps do exhibit some similar traits, such as the blue spot on the lips of the fish, but they aren't close enough to be able to hybridize. John

 

[blueblue]

For gibbiceps, unless they are matured enoguh, it is quite difficult to distinguish sex. The one in the photos could be a male or a female...

 

[javoski]

Apistos do have "sleeper" males who do, in the presence of the dominant male will turn yellow like females to curb aggression away from themselves. I take this to be the case with your fish. John

Wow! My jaw dropped!
Have no idea that males can pretend to be yellow females.
Can they get it to the point of dancing/dating the male and spend 3 days guarding a coconut cave, attacking corys and even neons?

Mine did all of that. I begun to worry myself because it stop feeding just to stay close to that cave...

That sleeper stuff makes me wonder. Is the yellow thing something that the female apistos control (like males who can showoff their fins and turn on their brightest colors)?


Thanks a lot John and all of u guys.

 

[P.W.]

The second photo of the yellow coloration, really makes me confused. I´m not a expert on Gibbiceps,but not even sneaker males turns yellow in any situation. They use to stay small and grey, until the dominant male disappear. Then they starts to grow fast, and then they get all the male coloration and shape.

Can you see if the fins are rounded or pointed? I have never seen a female gibbiceps with pointed fins. It is very difficult to judge by the photo of the fish.
I agree with blueblue, It can be a female or a male.

Best regards/ Per