Apistos Cacatuoides keep dying

[bmiza]

I need some help. I setup a tank for my apistos but added other species to make them feel confortables. This is a 17 galón aquarium, with 6 neon tetras, 7 green neon tetras and 5 corydoras.

My water parameters are:

Ph 7
GH 0mg/l
Kh 40mg/l
Nítrate 0
Nitrite 0
Chlorine 0
Temp 77 Fahrenheit

So bought 2 females and 1 male and one of the females died within 24 hours, the male died after a week. The male didn’t show any signs of illness however chased the female without nipping or biting. One day he was agitated, hid in a cave and died.

I really would like to have apistos and breed them so I bought, another trio but now 2 males and a female to make 2 pairs and when they paired put them in a separate tankk. As they were very juvenile, I introduce them to the tank following 1 hour of them submerged in the bag and them 1 hour of dripping to get them used to my water.

Today, I saw 2 of the males almost black and breathing very fast. No signs of fighting or any show of then being hurt. Just a very dark coloration and heavy breathing.

This being said, both males died and now I have 2 females.

I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, just yesterday each one had they own cave and there was no fights.

I need your expertise here and please help me to get them to survive and thrive in my tank

 

[MacZ]

I can tell: You definitely have a too small tank (60 liters is ok as a breeding tank without other fish and when removing the male after spawning, but definitely too small for a trio) and I presume you took the water parameters with a test strip, which is the least accurate method. So I'm asking you to copy and fill out the template for disease and death cases so we can get a better idea of your case. Also please provide more pictures, especially of the whole tank.

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

Please keep in mind: Most species of Apistogramma are polygamous and males do not tolerate females in their territory that are not ready to breed, just as brooding females often do not tolerate the male in their territory. The social structure is a big stress factor and stress in turn is the number one killer for captive dwarf cichlids. So a small tank can be a death trap because the fish can't evade dominant specimens. It's often not even that they actively kill them, they just make their existence so miserably stressful they stop eating and drop dead.

 

[Mike Wise]

As MacZ wrote your tank is too small for a breeding trio of apistos, especially when they are in with a densely populated community. You need to decide what you really want, a community tank or a breeding tank. It is virtually impossible to have both in something as small as your tank.

 

[bmiza]

Thanks so much for your insight Macz and Mike! My main goal is to breed them so having a community aquarium was just a result of adding neons (saw on YouTube that adding dither fish helped with apistos feeling safe). So my plan is now to have 2 separate aquariums 1 community and 1 for breeding only (both 17-20 galon). Is there any resource that you could point me to so I can get a better idea of how to setup a breeding tank? In my area I just can get them at a very juvenile stage (picture of 1 of the 2 apistogramas remaining).

so far I’ve moved the other apisto to the other tank with a cicled filter and hardscape from other tanks and left this little guy (?) in the community tank

 

[MacZ]

Yeah... Youtube is not the best advisor.

Firstly: Tetras are fry preadators. You will not have much success with them in the tank.

So my plan is now to have 2 separate aquariums 1 community and 1 for breeding only (both 17-20 galon).

You will still need a third tank (at least 80-100 liters) for growout. The smaller the growout the more waterchanges you will have to do in a week.

Also before breeding: You have someone who will take the fry? You might otherwise get stuck with them at least until the fish reach an age when you can sex them safely.

Is there any resource that you could point me to so I can get a better idea of how to setup a breeding tank?

Search this forum.

By the way the fish in the picture is not an Apistogramma cacatuoides. I'm thinking either A. macmasteri or A. hongsloi, but Mike or Frank will surely be able to ID this fish correctly.

 

[bmiza]

Yeah... Youtube is not the best advisor.

Firstly: Tetras are fry preadators. You will not have much success with them in the tank.


You will still need a third tank (at least 80-100 liters) for growout. The smaller the growout the more waterchanges you will have to do in a week.

Also before breeding: You have someone who will take the fry? You might otherwise get stuck with them at least until the fish reach an age when you can sex them safely.


Search this forum.

By the way the fish in the picture is not an Apistogramma cacatuoides. I'm thinking either A. macmasteri or A. hongsloi, but Mike or Frank will surely be able to ID this fish correctly.

Thanks MacZ. Im learning that finding reliable information is definitely a challenge and I’m happy I found that in here.

My main goal at this time is to breed the apistos so making the necessary changes for this project to succeed.

I’m getting another tank for the fry as I do have several LFS that are interested (chimed the idea and they are open to give me store credit)

So, would you say that 60L should be fine for a couple of apistos to thrive and when mating, move the male to a secondary tank?

Thinking about the next steps now

 

[bmiza]

Also sharing the pictures of my tank 3119 is left, 3120 top and 3121 (the best I could for right) and 3122 is front

 

[MacZ]

As for your breeding project:

Standard set-up is at least two 50-60 Liter tanks (one for breeding/spawning, one as a temporary holding for the male) and depending on the species a 60-100 Liter growout.

I’m getting another tank for the fry as I do have several LFS that are interested (chimed the idea and they are open to give me store credit)

Excellent. Please keep in mind most stores only take specimens 4cm or bigger. As this takes a while I recommend a bigger growout than 60 Liters.

As for your existing tank: It is a nice community tank but these kinds of island scapes are a death trap for all but the dominant Apisto in the tank. Because a domunant fish will claim the whole sand area of the tank and chase any other fish of its species in circles until it drops dead. The fact that there is some kind of a "window" in the scape makes it even worse. I would keep the tank for the fish that are in it and maaaaaybe ue it as a holding tank for a single male, but not keep more than one Apisto in it.

 

[Mike Wise]

The apisto in the photo definitely is not A. cacatuoides. You'll need 2 of the same species if you want successful reproduction. As MacZ wrote the tank is very open with no visual boundaries to separate territories. To me it is also very bright. Floating plants covering at least part of the surface will make your apistos less shy. Note that apistos in the wild are prey for other animals, not just other fish but also birds like herons and kingfishers so apistos do not feel comfortable out in the open or from above.

 

[bmiza]

As for your breeding project:

Standard set-up is at least two 50-60 Liter tanks (one for breeding/spawning, one as a temporary holding for the male) and depending on the species a 60-100 Liter growout.


Excellent. Please keep in mind most stores only take specimens 4cm or bigger. As this takes a while I recommend a bigger growout than 60 Liters.

As for your existing tank: It is a nice community tank but these kinds of island scapes are a death trap for all but the dominant Apisto in the tank. Because a domunant fish will claim the whole sand area of the tank and chase any other fish of its species in circles until it drops dead. The fact that there is some kind of a "window" in the scape makes it even worse. I would keep the tank for the fish that are in it and maaaaaybe ue it as a holding tank for a single male, but not keep more than one Apisto in it.

I will follow your advise MacZ. I will leave this community tank as it is with one apisto (sold to me as juvenile cacatuoides ) , have a 100L grow out tank prepared for when i got fry - seems like several months ahead - and will keep the other apisto on a 60L separated and only will use that tank for the breeding.


Sounds like that may be the course of action at this point.

Highly appreciate everyone’s guidance.

 

[bmiza]

The apisto in the photo definitely is not A. cacatuoides. You'll need 2 of the same species if you want successful reproduction. As MacZ wrote the tank is very open with no visual boundaries to separate territories. To me it is also very bright. Floating plants covering at least part of the surface will make your apistos less shy. Note that apistos in the wild are prey for other animals, not just other fish but also birds like herons and kingfishers so apistos do not feel comfortable out in the open or from above.

Oh man do you know what type of apisto might be? This fella was together with the rest of the Cacatuoides at the LFS

 

[anewbie]

Yeah... Youtube is not the best advisor.

Firstly: Tetras are fry preadators. You will not have much success with them in the tank.

SOME terta are predators. Neon happen to be one of them or so i've been told - in the small depart i've bred without issues with ember and morse code; conversely and to my surprise the larger kerri tetra totally ignore my frys.

My favorite dither by far are n. marilyn followed by n marginatus; though morse code tetra are very pretty they are also a little more boring:

 

[Mike Wise]

Oh man do you know what type of apisto might be? This fella was together with the rest of the Cacatuoides at the LFS

It is a macmasteri-complex species, but which one? I can't say for sure. There are 20+ species in the complex.

 

[MacZ]

It is a macmasteri-complex species, but which one? I can't say for sure. There are 20+ species in the complex.

But let's face it, if the fish was purchased in the open trade it will likely be a domestic A. macmasteri. I doubt you get one of the other species in a local fishstore.

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, that's 1 of 20+ possibilities ... and the one most likely. But the question asked was, "... do you know what type of apisto might be?" It might be any of 20+ different species.