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Apistogramma sp 'Kelleri'

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
Its now been over a year since the first official import into the UK(Mark breeze late 2009, 20 fish imported, 19 lost and a single female survivor) there have since been two more successful imports to my knowledge(Pier aquatics, Rare aquatics April 2010)

At a guess i would say that the UK has a population of under 100 A.sp 'Kelleri' at the moment.

I picked up a good sized pair from the first import into Pier aqautics, i was amongst the first to do so and was very pleased to work with them. I received my pair in April 2010 and only managed to get some fry in December 2010!!! there have been a few problems to iron out so the purpose of this thread is to track the keepers/breeders of this fish and to invite you to describe the situation with this fish in your country and also your experiences. Its douptful that this fish will become a common import, much like all rarer species it is vital to continue this fish in the hobby as tank bred. Eventually we will need to inject fresh blood into the lines so it would be nice to have contact with all the breeders via this thread!

My experiences with this Large Apisto have been very positive, right from the start they settled in well and ate imediately, as with all my fish i feed fresh baby brineshrimp but due to the size of the fish i felt that this alone would not do the trick! i started adding white and grindal worms to the diet and the fish responded with better growth and condition.

I keep mine in a 24x12x12 tank containing a inert white sand substrate, several pieces of bogwood, oak and beech leaves and several coconut caves with small entrances. Water is adjusted to PH 4.8 - PH 5.5 with tiny amounts of phosphoric acid and is very soft TDS 55ppm..Water changes are done every two days.

Not long after receiving them i got my first spawn, the male spawned outside the cave as ive seen others do but after three days the female was back in the open and feeding, acting normal, this happened a further 5 times with the same results! No fry!
After watching them spawn again and seeing the male unsuccessfully trying to get into the breeding cave i decided to make a change, the old caves came out and two with much larger entrances were placed in. I didnt see them spawn next time round but noticed the female had spawned, i kept my eye on them and she remained in the cave after 3 days, next i saw her brooding and was delighted that the changes worked.
The first spawn numbered 8 fry which are around 4-5 weeks old, they were removed and the pair spawned again almost imediately, the second batch are 4 days freeswimming and number 10..

Broodcare is almost identical to A.barlowi which ive also spawned, the female will hold the larvae in her mouth for several hours and then quite happily place them down either in the cave or under a leaf in a pre dug pit, she will then feed normally before picking the fry up and heading back to the cave, once there it depended on the females mood whether she mouthed the fry or not.. After the fry are freeswimming no further mouthbrooding is witnessed.

Id be very happy for all owners/breeders of this fish to add to this thread your experiences or observations, even if you have not spawned them, your observations are still of use to those wishing to do so..

This is a lovely and interesting rare fish that deserves to remain in the hobby, UK breeders are slowly breeding this fish in small numbers, hopefully with more to come!
 

Mark

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
99
Location
Netherlands
Well, the experieces in Holland are weird. There is one breeder who breeds them easily in low Ph and low conductivity, but another breeder has the same water conditions and can't get them to breed succesfully (the eggs won't hatch).
For myself i have seen good young in Ph 6,5 and rainwater. But sometimes these conditions are hopeless and the eggs won't hatch. I still haven't figured out why. I think the amount of organic pollution in the tank is one of the other important parameters. Most of the good young were produced in newly set up tanks.

Wenn the young have reached 1 week of age they are very strong and most of them will survive and reach maturity. In my last batch I had 8 males and no females although the waterparameters were not extreme. That will be the next researchobject..

One extra thing to know is that in Holland we have two resources of A. kelleri. We have the fish coming in as originating from the Jutai (by Mimbon). The other source is the group of Dutch collectors who took them to Holland. These two are from different streams; maybe the waterconditions are different in the two.
 

Erik82

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
132
Location
Groningen, Netherlands
Like Mark said, here in the Netherlands we have a bit trouble breeding them. Personally i have had eggs one time (when i was on a holiday) Non of the fry made it to adult. I tried almost everything. I used different types of water, pH 4.5 and EC of 40uS/cm until pH 6 with EC around 100 uS/cm (RO water mixed with some tap water). I refresh my water once a week around 25% of the total content of the tank (180 liter).

With the remark of Mark i will try to refresh twice a week 25%, lets see what happens...
 

Microman

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
387
Location
Shropshire,England.
Mark,
The fish Mimbon are bringing in are from Leticia, not Jutai, as originally stated in 2009 by the fisherman who collected them. He has now stated they are collected from Leticia.

It seems like you chaps in the Netherlands are having similar problems that many people over here initially had with I adoketa. Lots of eggs being laid but despite very soft water and low pH none were viable.
I solved my problems by using a small UV to lower the bacterial load in the water alongside frequent water changes but others in areas with better water quality for SA dwarfs,NW of England for example, just needed frequent water changes.

I have had no problem spawning Kelleri either in the UK and have found them quite prolific.

I have also, for research only, spawned Kelleri with A.barlowi"Red/Yahuasyacu" just to see how closely related the 2 species are with positive results. Have a few young growing on now.
Obviously the young will not be introduced into the hobby, Just for photographic and scientific purposes....

I also tried Kelleri with A.barlowi"White/Ampiyacu" but no success with these despite having eggs on numerous occasions.
Mark...
 

Mark

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
99
Location
Netherlands
Hi Mark,

We all know that the fish does not come from the Jutai. I already mentioned it wenn the very first appeared. The fish from Mimbon and others will come from a stream close to the stream where the Dutch collectors have been, but it is very likely that it is not the same. That's why we keep the two separated and only breed with fish from the same source. Erik and I have the fish from the collectors; one other breeder (he has the most succes) has the fish from Mimbon.

Mark
 

Microman

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
387
Location
Shropshire,England.
Hi Mark,
I understand that you, better than most, know of the fishes true origins but many on here are not fully aware. Reading your post made its geographical location a little misleading for those who do not fully understand its true origins.
If i hadnt mentioned it Mark i can guarantee somebody else would have....
Mark....
 

Mark

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
99
Location
Netherlands
Yes you're right. But we have to make a difference between the two. That's why I keep using the Jutai. Not because they come from the Jutai, just to see the difference with the other source. Does anyone know the exact stream of the fish from Mimbon? I know they come from Leticia, but it would help to know the name of the stream they are really caught. The others come from the area of Leticia too.

For now I will use the following names:

A. Kelleri "Mimbon"
A. Kelleri "Dutch"

Mark
 

Stéphane AUDIGOU

New Member
Messages
6
Location
Brest in France
Hello,

I'm in France near Brest.

Excuses-me for my English.

I have 1 cple A. sp. kelleri.

I take in july 2010 to Verduijn Cichlids in Holland.

In november 2010 I have my first reproduction : 3 fishs

In january 2011 I have my second reproduction : 9 fishs

ph 5.8
180 µS
T° 26

I like this fish.

Stéphane
 

Erik82

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
132
Location
Groningen, Netherlands
Hello,

I'm in France near Brest.

Excuses-me for my English.

I have 1 cple A. sp. kelleri.

I take in july 2010 to Verduijn Cichlids in Holland.

In november 2010 I have my first reproduction : 3 fishs

In january 2011 I have my second reproduction : 9 fishs

ph 5.8
180 µS
T° 26

I like this fish.

Stéphane

These fish are definitely from Letitia. The Dutch collectors Mark named left them at Verduijn. How many times do you refresh your water? How many percent of your total volume of your tank?
 

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
Any idea yet of peoples sex ratios?? my first batch are only around 6 weeks old so a bit to early to tell.. im hoping for at least a pair or two to continue breeding with them.

Ive also just sourced another wild pair from a UK hobbiest so pretty pleased with that.
 

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
A few pics of A.sp.'kelleri' juveniles, these fish are around 2 months old now and growing fast, most seem to be developing a lot of blue spangling so i would assume males?? only time will tell.

DSCF6008.jpg

DSCF6007.jpg

DSCF6036.jpg

DSCF6014.jpg

DSCF6038.jpg
 

Mark

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
99
Location
Netherlands
In my fish, the ones that show the striping in the tail and the bleuish scales are turning into males. Would mean that your fish in the pictures are males (just like mine).

Mark
 

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
Its looking that way Mark.. Mostly males but there are one or two looking like females so fingers crossed for at least a couple of pairs of F1!!
 

Dzo

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
16
Location
Europe
Any idea yet of peoples sex ratios?? my first batch are only around 6 weeks old so a bit to early to tell.. im hoping for at least a pair or two to continue breeding with them.

Ive also just sourced another wild pair from a UK hobbiest so pretty pleased with that.

It suprises me that you plan to inbreed them...

When I started to read this thread I was so glaid... There are no mouthbroading apistos in my country. And as a big enthysiast am looking forward in their number increasing so maybe some day I could also get them...
Now I don't think that it would be smart to get them soon especialy if originated from inbread fish...
 

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
It suprises me that you plan to inbreed them...

When I started to read this thread I was so glaid... There are no mouthbroading apistos in my country. And as a big enthysiast am looking forward in their number increasing so maybe some day I could also get them...
Now I don't think that it would be smart to get them soon especialy if originated from inbread fish...

Id be interested to see how you would progress if only very limited numbers are available, if you received the only unrelated pair in your country, how would you establish them as a aquarium fish in your country??
 

Dzo

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
16
Location
Europe
I would never do such a thing... Progress you say... What is a progress by your standards? Is it creating sick fish and abominations? People who think this way act only negative to the fish like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding#Results

Progress ... just say money, we can understand.

Going against sane and reason just to achieve temporary goal led to many disasters in history... just take a look what your country did with cows just a few years ago, BSE... was that progress?

Would you make offspring with your sister to achieve anything? If not then why do you make your fish do it?
 

ste12000

Member
5 Year Member
Messages
619
Location
Cheshire..UK
I would never do such a thing... Progress you say... What is a progress by your standards? Is it creating sick fish and abominations? People who think this way act only negative to the fish like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding#Results

Progress ... just say money, we can understand.

Going against sane and reason just to achieve temporary goal led to many disasters in history... just take a look what your country did with cows just a few years ago, BSE... was that progress?

Would you make offspring with your sister to achieve anything? If not then why do you make your fish do it?

Right firstly, are you a fishbreeder with any experience of genetics? if not, get off your high horse and calm down!

If you re-read the posts above you will find that i have just sourced a second pair of wild Kelleri which just about makes me one of the only hobbiests in the UK with more than one wild pair of Kelleri, if i breed the second pair i will be aiming to work with two seperate lines and you will find that most serious hobbiests on here will back me up and say that it is entirely possible to breed multiple strong generations by using two lines of fish..All the best breeders over the years including Dr focke and Rosario LaCorte and my own friend here in the UK Alan Vass are all on record of having inbred for multiple generations with very good results. I think you are very nieve to think that it does not happen and cannot happen!!

Please do not bring money into this at all! i import and sell fish and can make money from fish, i will tell you right now that there is not a penny to be made breeding mouthbrooding Apistogramma, dont you dare mention money! I have owned the fish for the best part of 12 months, in that time i have bred and raised 17 Apistogramma sp 'Kelleri', that equates to 1.42 fish produced per month! Is that really commercial breeding?
How dare you question my motives when it comes to Apistogramma! if i tally up how much 'money' my Apistogramma racks have made me i would be bankrupt! if you think i breed Apistogramma to make money you are very very much mistaken and im really fuming that you even imply so... Check out my name on the internet, you will find i have bred Apistogramma as a hobby for many years, very few make money after you have spent 6 months conditioning them and then growing them on for a further 6 months! i do make money from fish, its my business but the Apistogramma breeding is solely a hobby and one that i am very serious and protective over!

And finally in your country it maybe ok to speak of sleeping with your sister, here in the UK and especially where i grew up it is a huge insult! I have two beautiful, intelligent and wonderful sisters that i am very proud of.....its a good job that we will never meet in person!
 

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