Aggressive female Apistogramma cacatuoides

[Linds6292]

Hi

I've just started getting back into the aquarium hobby after a few years. After coming across a LFS that had many Apistogramma, I got interested. I had just set up a new aquarium and decided to give them a go.

I bought a male and female cacatuoides on the 2nd. They seem to be doing great and getting more colour (especially the female). I love their personality already. At first, they didn't seem to interact a lot with each other much but after a few days they seemed to have 'paired up'.

I didn't put any pots or a cave as such in the tank firstly because I don't like the look of them and secondly because I don't have any and we are now in lockdown. However, there are a lot of natural cave-like places in the tank and plenty of flat rocks they can use. I figured that would do.

On the 11th I was looking for the female. I noticed part of a plant that had been dislodged and went to investigate. Sure enough, there she was. She had dug a small depression in the gravel behind the plant and had laid eggs on the glass. She was busy keeping the cardinal tetras away whenever they cam close. After watching her for about 2 minutes, the male came over to that side of the tank. To my surprise, she left the eggs, adopted an aggressive posture, and chased him away before he got too close then went back to guard the eggs.

I had a closer look at the eggs and saw they were white, not a good sign normally I would think.

What do you think? Is this aggression normal or do the pair usually co-parent? Why were the eggs white? Not fertilised?

 

[ButtNekkid]

Hi,

That´s a very nice tank!

I´ve seen eggs with multiple color. White ones too. So not necessarily a sign of not being fertilized.
But I suspect you won´t get many fry into adults. You´ve got very adept fry hunters in there...

 

[Mike Wise]

Females, as a rule, do not want a showy male near her spawning site so she 'encourages' the male to go elsewhere. In the wild males with flashy colors attract preditors.

 

[Linds6292]

Hi,

That´s a very nice tank!

I´ve seen eggs with multiple color. White ones too. So not necessarily a sign of not being fertilized.
But I suspect you won´t get many fry into adults. You´ve got very adept fry hunters in there...

Thanks. I love the tank and it looks much better in person. I've added more moss etc. now too.
I wonder if she ate the eggs or if the tetras did? You're right, they were right onto them. But she was holding them back if they got close. I'm going to set up a small tank so I can put them in there. Or I might put a cave in so at least I can see if they can hatch a clutch.

 

[Linds6292]

Females, as a rule, do not want a showy male near her spawning site so she 'encourages' the male to go elsewhere. In the wild males with flashy colors attract preditors.

I see. That makes sense. So there is no cause to worry.
I was thinking of getting another female. If that's the case, then maybe the tank is too small.

 

[Linds6292]

So, I have been going to set up a small breeder tank for this pair to spawn in. Yesterday I looked at the female and thought "you look pretty fat, I'd better hurry it up. So I set up a 20L tank with a filter I had been running on a plant tank that I just emptied. The flow was way too much for the tank to be suitable for fry, but I wanted to get the tank inoculated as quick as I could and add a sponge filter before the fry came along. I put some wood and some oak leaves in there too but have since read cacatuoides don't like tannins much. Is that right?.
Today I came home and looked for my female cacatuoides. It took me a while to find her but eventually I founder her in a cave she had dug under a rock and just in view were a couple of eggs! Too late! You can see two eggs where the arrow is and her belly as she's in there fussing about.

The tetras had not found the eggs yet because they were swimming past when she wasn't in the cave and were oblivious. I want to give this lot of eggs a fighting chance so I have now transferred my tetras to the small tank where they will stay until the fry get big not to be eaten. Hopefully, these ones will hatch. The female looks a little more relaxed now.

I've had a drama in the main tank with something the CO2 solenoid exploding (sounded like a capacitor). We are in lockdown so I can't replace it until Saturday. My plants will probably suffer a bit, but hopefully this might make it a bit better for fry to find food if there is some rotting plant about. Though I would normally get rid off all that when I change the water on Sunday.

I've heard that BBS are the best food for the fry. I have never raised them before, but it looks simple. I'm just concerned my house isn't warm enough to hatch the eggs. Can I feed them other things like infusoria, egg yolk or such? Or should I just try the brine shrimp? The warmest part of my house is 20C (68F). Is that warm enough to hatch them? Do I need to have several batches on the go? I have at least a week before I will have to feed them right?

On a side note, my male loves to eat the algae wafers I put in for the otos. He kinda grinds it up and a lot just comes out his gills but he must eat some. I thought they were carnivorous.

 

[Mike Wise]

Obviously you had a community tank with a pair of apistos who wanted to breed; not a good situation. I personally would have let Nature take its course. If some fry survived, then fine. If not, there will be other times. 20°C is rather low for apistos. I guess you don't have an aquarium heater. It will take the eggs much longer to hatch, if they actually do. I also think that simple is better when breeding apistos. So I would set up the smaller tank (how small is it?) with a heater set to at least 24°C (26° would be better), a well inoculated sponge filter and many hiding places. With good food and good water in a well maintained tank your apistos will breed again and have a better rate of success.

BBS are the best food for fry. It is more natural and moves in the water column, where it stimulates fry to feed. It is not a difficult process to hatch BBS and you can freeze excess for later. Even adults eagerly eat BBS. Apistos in the wild are opportunists when it comes to food. Much of their diet is aquatic crustaceans and insect larvae but a sizable proportion comes from sifting organic debris from the substrate. They are geophagines, after all.

 

[Linds6292]

Obviously you had a community tank with a pair of apistos who wanted to breed; not a good situation. I personally would have let Nature take its course. If some fry survived, then fine. If not, there will be other times. 20°C is rather low for apistos. I guess you don't have an aquarium heater. It will take the eggs much longer to hatch, if they actually do. I also think that simple is better when breeding apistos. So I would set up the smaller tank (how small is it?) with a heater set to at least 24°C (26° would be better), a well inoculated sponge filter and many hiding places. With good food and good water in a well maintained tank your apistos will breed again and have a better rate of success.

BBS are the best food for fry. It is more natural and moves in the water column, where it stimulates fry to feed. It is not a difficult process to hatch BBS and you can freeze excess for later. Even adults eagerly eat BBS. Apistos in the wild are opportunists when it comes to food. Much of their diet is aquatic crustaceans and insect larvae but a sizable proportion comes from sifting organic debris from the substrate. They are geophagines, after all.

Thanks Mike. Yes, I know it wasn't an ideal situation. I was setting up a tank like you are saying (see the previous post) and the pair spawned again before I could get them into it. Last time they spawned either the female or the tetras consumed the eggs within 24hrs. That's why I removed the tetras this time. If this brood is unsuccessful again, I will swap them over again and put the apistos in the smaller tank until they spawn again then remove the male back to the community.

To be clear, my tank temp. is 26C. 20C is my room temperature. In regard to hatching BBS, I wondered if it would be successful at that temperature. I have zero experience with them and so may methods say different things. I have read they have a short window of good nutrition as 'babies' before they have to shed. Then they eat again and start to build up their nutritional value once more. Do I need to worry about that or should I just culture them and hope for the best?

 

[Mike Wise]

0°C is rather cool and hatching will take longer. I bet someone has reporded time/temperature data on the web somewhere. Do a search. Nutritionwise, use the BBS withing 24 - 36 hours after hatching and freeze any left over.

 

[yukondog]

Use a lamp for the heat if need be, that's what I use in the winter.

 

[ButtNekkid]

https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/bs-2020.pdf

This might help also

 

[Linds6292]

0°C is rather cool and hatching will take longer. I bet someone has reporded time/temperature data on the web somewhere. Do a search. Nutritionwise, use the BBS withing 24 - 36 hours after hatching and freeze any left over.

You spoke about freezing them before. I can do that, but what doesn't make sense is that once they have been frozen they aren't live. Will they fry still eat them? If they will, why not just feed frozen shrimp? I have them in the freezer now. Or do you mean just feed them to something else?
Co-ordinating hatching of both unknowns is going to be pretty impossible for a first-timer

Use a lamp for the heat if need be, that's what I use in the winter.

Oh yeah, I'm sure I could find one around somewhere. I was looking for something to light them.

https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/bs-2020.pdf

This might help also

Greaet! This method looks amazing for small batches. I could float the dish on one of my tanks and it would be warm and lit. Perfect!

Some great help thanks.

 

[yukondog]

Oh yeah, I'm sure I could find one around somewhere. I was looking for something to light them.

It would do both.

 

[Mike Wise]

I personally don't freeze because I can feed BBS to all of my fish. Adult apisto eat them just like we eat popcorn, 1 piece as a time. My other fish, pencils and tetras, are more than happy to eat any leftovers. Frozen BBS isn't ideal, but I feel it is better than feeding powder foods to apistos.

 

[Linds6292]

Time for an update. I reacted too quickly when I thought the eggs were gone again. In fact, she moved the wrigglers but before I knew that I put the tetras back in. Mum was pretty good as a parent. She kept them all away. It would have been way too hard to feed the fry in that tank though, so I moved them all. I got a glass jar and put it in the tank in the spot they were hanging out. I put some BBS in there and after a while, she and half the fry were in there. I put my hand over the mouth and took the whole lot to the new tank. I had just done a water change and swapped 3/4 of the water from that tank with the water from their tank to make sure the water was going to be ok. Then I caught the rest of the fry with a pipette. That took some practice. They were good at swimming out just as I sucked them up.
All up it went well and she accepted them all in the new tank. There were about 35 fry. I combined a few of Diana's BBS hatching techniques and have found an easy method (thanks @ButtNekkid). I put 5-10mm of 14ppt brine in a little plastic cup (that tissue culture plants come in) and sprinkled some eggs in. I do that every morning and harvest them on the third day. So I have one I just put on, one 24hrs old that is partially hatched and one I use to feed. I also add a couple of drops of infusoria I cultured for the BBS to eat if they are at that stage (early hatchers). This is working really well.
The fry have grown well I think. They are between 7 and 10mm long at a guess. There were 32 last week. I think there are more like 20 now, but I can't count them.

My main problem now is mum is a pig. She eats a lot of BBS. I try to feed her first, then add the BBS. But she always eats. Yesterday I fed her about 10-15 live mosquito larvae I caught in a bucket outside. She devoured them as she could find them around the tank. Occasionally she nearly ate a fry she thought was one. I have seen here do that a few time since which makes me wonder if some have been eaten. Anyway, she ate them and I put he BBS in for the fry, she still gobbled them up too. A couple of the fry were interested in some tiny larvae that they could have swallowed. It was hilarious, they couldn't figure out how to eat them when they moved.
I tried feeding frozen BBS yesterday. They don't like them.

Any suggestions? If not, I have to try and get another tank set up for them so I can leave here in there and put the male in with her again.

 

[yukondog]

I like to leave them with the female for about 6 weeks before removing the female.

 

[Linds6292]

I like to leave them with the female for about 6 weeks before removing the female.

I just hope I can keep the food up to them with her there.

 

[yukondog]

There were 32 last week. I think there are more like 20 now, but I can't count them.

I counted about 30 off your picture.

 

[Linds6292]

I counted about 30 off your picture.

That was last week