A. Cacatuoides fry(s,es?)gone

[Edvin]

Hi, I have an aquarium with a pair of
Apistograma Cacatuoides and 10 neon fish. One day I noticed that the female was raising 5 fry. Then every day a fry disappeared, finally only one remained and it seemed to develop and grow, but after a few days it also disappeared.

My questions are:
Where could they have gone? Could they have been absorbed by the filter equipment?
Should I have fed them? (I didn't)

Here are some pictures about them...
Unfortunatelly I haven't any pictures about the fry(s,es?)
Thank you in advance for your answer! And sorry for my bad English.

 

[Aquaticloch]

There are 3 likely options for where the fry grow, a. cacatuodies generally can raise more than 50 fry at a time, new mothers less.

1. The mother ate the fry, this sometimes happens with new parents

2. Not enough micro food for the fry to feed on, supplement multiple times daily with bbs (baby brine shrimp) and add mosses for the fry to hide in, and feed on.

3. The neons ate your fry, neons are notorious fry predators, and breeding tanks arent community tanks, if you want the breeding and raising of fry to be more successful than not, removed the neons.

Also, from what i can see your tank looks to be too barren for apisto breeding, i'd recommend adding more hardscape or densely planting the tank to break up sight lines. Good luck though! Apistos are very rewarding and beautiful fish to keep .

Edit: I also would recommend putting a sponge (from the aquaclear with a hole from the top into the centre of the sponge over the intake. I did this while breeding guppies and have since moved to sponge filters with my apistos.

 

[Ben Rhau]

There are many ways the fry could have died, but there is zero chance they would survive very long with 10 neons in that tank.

Also, how large is the tank? The depth from picture #1 looks quite small.

 

[MacZ]

May I add, those are cardinal tetras, not neons. Same genus, different species. Otherwise I agree with the others: No chance of any fry surviving in that tank.

 

[Edvin]

There are many ways the fry could have died, but there is zero chance they would survive very long with 10 neons in that tank.

Also, how large is the tank? The depth from picture #1 looks quite small.

Like 50 Litres, but breeding is not my goal, I just like watching the mother raise her fry.

 

[Edvin]

May I add, those are cardinal tetras, not neons. Same genus, different species. Otherwise I agree with the others: No chance of any fry surviving in that tank.

These are red neons or something like that, the "simple" neons don't have that much red on them.
Thanks your help!

 

[Ben Rhau]

50 liters can work for a breeding pair. I recommend you put the tetras in a different tank and then keep the male in that second tank once you see fry.

 

[MacZ]

These are red neons or something like that, the "simple" neons don't have that much red on them.

In German Paracheirodon axelrodi are "Rote Neons" (= Red Neons in English), but in English the correct common name is "cardinal tetra".

 

[Edvin]

Thanks for everyone's help, I hope they don't die next time and can grow up.

 

[Edvin]

Me again, the female cacatuoid mostly lies on the ground and swims strangely, or rather slides on the ground (it looks like it is dying or sick)
Now she is lying on the ground and just breathing.

What could be the reason? Could it be because her little ones have disappeared?

The male still does the "flirt" thing several times (swims back and shakes his body)

 

[Edvin]

Now she is spinning and can't really controll himself.
@dw1305 can you help me?

 

[MacZ]

The fish is already in critical condition. There is nothing you can do.
Maybe a waterchange, allthough I doubt it will do anything.

 

[Edvin]

The fish is already in critical condition. There is nothing you can do.
Maybe a waterchange, allthough I doubt it will do anything.

What can do this, have you any tips?

 

[MacZ]

It could be anything, I'd need a lot more information about the tank, maintenance, the whole deal.
Though I'll not be entirely wrong when I say suppressed immune response due to stress from subpar care in an overstocked and not species appropriate tank may be part of the explanation.

 

[Ben Rhau]

She has a swim bladder problem, and it's probably too late.

Without more information, it's impossible to say why she got sick. Similar to what Mac says, I suspect she has been stressed by poor water quality and/or aggression from the male.

Water quality: What are the dimensions of your tank? Judging from the scale of items in the photos, it looks a lot smaller than 50 liters, in which case it would be quite a bit overstocked.

Aggression: If the male wants to breed and the female isn't ready, he will try to evict her from the tank, and there appears to be little to no place for her to hide.

It sounds like you're a beginner. Sorry you had a bad experience to start. I recommend doing more research before proceeding with apistos. To thrive long term, they need a large footprint, plenty of structure and cover, appropriate substrate (fine sand), and preferably lots of plants.

Good luck

 

[Edvin]

Hi!
Yes, I'am a beginner
The quality:
The water in the tank is less then 50 liters, because the tank is 50 liter and doesn't full of water. There is an Atman CF-800 pressurized canister filter, that is a biological and physical filter.
The aggression:
The male wasn't really agressive, he is flirting but doesn't bite the female, and doesn't chase him. Kept a litttle distance, and 'defended' the territory.
Thank you for xour advice!
(Sorry for my bad english)

 

[MacZ]

The male wasn't really agressive, he is flirting but doesn't bite the female, and doesn't chase him. Kept a litttle distance, and 'defended' the territory.

No offence, I'm a bit hesitant to take your description of the behaviour at face value. You don't sit in front of the tank all day I suppose and your experience with the behaviour is probably not yet very extensive. I suspect you underestimate the impact of permanent bothering and the lack of rest.
Not that I would put you in that category of people, but I have witnessed people interpret fish killing each other as cuddling or kissing. You would be surprised.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Now she is spinning and can't really controll himself.
@dw1305 can you help me?

Not really, it is like the others say, a pretty bad sign.

Maybe a waterchange,

My suggestion as well.

One of the reasons <"I like a lot of plants"> is that they have a beneficial effect on water quality, and I'm not a <"particularly good fish keeper">, so I need all the help I can get.

cheers Darrel

 

[hongyj]

My questions are:
Where could they have gone? Could they have been absorbed by the filter equipment?
Should I have fed them? (I didn't)

I've had too much success with my cactuiodes recently. I've been getting spawns upwards of 100 almost every week or every other week from two pairs I have. I've tried multiple different setups, water parameters, etc..
I've had my best pair eat their spawns twice recently now. Sometimes you just have to sit down and observe your fish and the tank. I realized that the tannins in the water made the glass on the side of the tank look like a mirror and would find my female apistogramma constantly flaring at it when she had eggs and babies, which later on were eaten. I think that dither fish is essential for people who don't have a good understanding of how to breed fish. If the fish don't think their babies are safe, then they'll eat them to preserve nutrients. I have a friend in NY who kept agassizii and the neon tetras just ate up all the fry. Having around two to three is fine but I wouldn't go anywhere above that. Especially with schooling fish, the more you have, the more confident they feel and one female apistogramma won't fend off those rascals. I would recommend pencilfish or guppies if you want the most success. Dither fish just make your apistogramma feel more comfortable. Give them hiding spaces as well, you're not an experienced breeder to be able to pull off a breeding tank. Breeding tanks are temporary places for the fish to breed and lay eggs in and they're moved back to their nicer tank where they'll fatten up for the next spawn.

Like MacZ said, I find it difficult to believe that an inexperienced person is able to interpret the body language and behavior of such complex fish. Your female doesn't seem too discolored and still has the breeding colors. What I'm assuming is that it was her first spawn and that the tetras got to the fry and she's spending time looking around. If you look at one of my posts from earlier on, after taking the eggs from my female, she started rubbing the ground and looking in every corner and the outer layer of her eyes started peeling off. It's rough, their maternal instinct kicks in. Seeing how your female doesn't really show consistent signs of other diseases, it's probably that she is stressed and therefore ill.

Breeding apistogrammas and just fish in general is difficult. I see people without the talent or knowledge trying to breed the fish. A variety of factors determines how well a breeding project goes, but I think substantial amounts of research help. I spent a year studying apistogrammas in my junior year of highschool as I was preparing for college and could not be distracted by having fish. I stuided what water they need, how they breed, what causes them to breed, their habitat in the wild, etc. etc.. But all that really helped. I was able to breed my triple reds within a month of getting them from when they were 0.75 inches and I have around 700 baby apistos when I started in february. I bred my fire red agassiziis within the first week of getting them. I bred my bettas within a day of getting them shipped to me. I'm not saying that I am better than you, what I am saying is that it's a difficult thing, and that I out of all people would know. Knowledge makes the process easy, I spent countless hours of my fre time scouring forums and articles.

Thank you for sharing your journey with us and this forum and please let me know if you would like to buy some fish! I breed apistogramma triple and super reds along with fire red agassiziis. I also have some premium koi bettas that everyone seems to love. I have really healthy 1.25 inch female apistogrammas right now if you are interested. Their blood line is from aquatic clarity who is a renowned and respected breeder across the world specially with dward cichlids.