$0 gal. breeder, for how many rams?

[Jonathan Aquari]

After discovering "www.oddballfish.com", my interest with the famous German Blue Rams "re-aroused" its self. And, while watching a video on YouTube on this guys ram pair breeding in his S. American community tank (planted), I began to wonder, How many Rams (and/or pairs) could fit in a 40 gal. "breeder"?

Scence i plan on getting 6 Rams (4 GBRs & 2 EBRs) for my B-day on the 22nd, I would just like to know if i could have 2-6 pairs in a single tank.

Thanks,
Jonathan:biggrin:

 

[jaafaman]

Here are a few points I made some time ago - before tank crowding started gaining popularity in biotopes:

Observations on Blue Ram Behavior

 

[Mike Wise]

In the wild, Orinoco Rams are know to breed in groups with neighboring breeding territories. Once the fry get old enough to leave their parents, they form schools of similar size fish until they mature and form pair bonds. You might want to try 6 - 8 fish, maybe even more, in a 40 Breeder (36x18"/90x45cm bottom). Just make certain that you have somewhere where fish that can't form a territory can hide from other fish. I use pieces of floating pipe for this purpose.

 

[Jonathan Aquari]

And while we're on he topic of GBRs & EBRs, dose anyone now the chances of them (one GBR and one EBR) forming a pair and successfully breeding.

Also, I would like yo have some Celebes Rainbows in there with them.

 

[tjudy]

Any of the ram tank strain color varieties will breed. The electric blue appears to be a co-dominant, or at least multi-allelic, trait and throws fish that are a little bluer than wildtype and yellower than electric blue when crossed to wildtype. I think that the electric blue color is better described as 'reduced yellow' phenotype... but that is my opinion.

The rams from www.oddballfish.com are very good. I have groups of their German Blue and Gold rams.

 

[Jonathan Aquari]

Thanks,

Good thing I learned about Genes and stuff last year, or I wouldn't know what your saying :biggrin:

 

[gerald]

Celebes rainbows should do OK as long as your water is not too soft, at least 4 dGH (70 ppm) or higher hardness. If your water is softer, I'd suggest a different schooling fish: tetras, hatchets, rasboras, danios, small barbs (pentazona, hexazona, checkerboard, cherry), or one of the soft-water rainbowfish species.

Hmmm .. i see that oddballfish.com says that "hardness does not matter" for Celebes rainbows, so maybe they tolerate softer water than I thought. Long ago when I worked in a shop where the tap water was 25 - 35 ppm hardness they didn't do well unless we added crushed coral to harden it. But that was in a shop, dealing with frequent shipments of travel-stressed fish.

 

[tjudy]

Celebes would not be my first choice for ram dithers if the goal is to create a breeding colony. They are very active, and I suspect they would be efficient fry predators.

I keep and breed the rams from oddballfish.com in pH 7.6, 250-300 ppm TDS and KH 12. Tank strain fish are more tolerant of aberrant water conditions (as compared to natural habitat conditions) than wild fish are... which is another plus for tank-raised fish!

 

[PeteShew]

Ted, even though you "breed the rams from oddballfish.com in pH 7.6, 250-300 ppm TDS and KH 12", do you find that oddball has selected over the years for the trait of the parents successfully raising their young? I've read that wildcaught rams have the best record for that trait. But ofcourse WC fish would need soft / low ph / black water conditions. With the very best ram parents, what is the max length of time would I expect the fry to survive with the parents before the parents decide to eat the fry? Thanks, Pete

 

[Mike Wise]

Rams in the wild come from waters that change in chemistry over the seasons. In the dry season, the water hardens and in the wet season it softens. This makes the fish very adaptable, water chemistry-wise. I don't know of any Rams collected in true blackwater, however. Depending on the aquarium, the individual fish and how well they behave, Orinoco Rams can keep their fry until they are young adults. It isn't common, but does occur. Usually breeding problems are caused by location, size, and lay-out of the aquarium and incompatible pairs. My guess is that if you used a very large aquarium put in a quiet location with many Rams (12+) that you would be more likely to get 'natural' breeding behavior. I have never tried this myself. My largest aquarium is a 55 gallon (Mugsy's home), which is too small for this system. Don't let this dissuade you. Many breeders have successfully raised fry to large (1" / 25mm) size with parents in much smaller tanks, but luck is part of the deal.

 

[tjudy]

IME, parental success is more a factor of experience than genetics. Assuming that all factors are in favor of a pair caring for their fry, a new pair is less likely to be successful than an older pair that has had several spawns. This is one reason I like to leave fry with new pairs for at least the first couple spawns, and when I remove fry I like to leave some behind for the parents to care for. As far as what Oddballfish.com's rams do.... I see the same pattern. The first spawn rarely gets to free swimming stage. Spawn two last a few days into free swimming. After that the pairs seem to settle down nicely. One thing I have noticed about these strains is that they prefer to lay their eggs in open pits, while most wild rams I have had choose a hard surface.