Sick Apisto advice please

[JessyB]

So I've not been having any luck with apistos(cauc double red). I've managed to kill 2 males and a female already so far. The last to go was a male, the typical bloat symptoms you'd find in african cichlids. Hiding, not eating, bloated abdomen, stringy feces, loss of color etc. I attributed this to parasites that are common in european imported apistos. I've used the bloat treatment found on cichlid-forum.com with success 3 times on african malawi cichlids. I decided to try it out on my last male apisto, was looking promising but the 80% water change that is suggested on day 4 was too much for him and he immediatly shocked and died. I replaced the water through a python and looking back perhaps if I had added it more gradually I would have been better off perhaps.

So fast forward, after losing these apistos I obtained a male and 2 female trio from a local reputed hobby breeder. And now we have the same thing, was doing great for a few weeks and the same thing. This time I decided to try metro, treating the whole tank. I went this route after killing the last one with the clout treatment and the difficulty in catching a small fish in a planted tank. I used another method I found on cichlid-forum.com as follows, adjusted to my tank size....http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46140&postdays=0&post order=asc&&start=0

On day 4, he still did not eat and no change. If tonight(day 5), should I try to catch him and quarantine and try to the bloat treatment with clout? Or should I wait and see, though i'm not optomistic he'll pull through if I do nothing further. At the same time, i'm wondering if the metro and now hitting him with clout might be alot for him to handle? I''m including a couple of pictures, only had my camera phone handy so this was the best I could do for the moment. One of the females is also looking like she's about to be in the same boat, and is laying beside him last night. But this morning she was swimming around with the other female so if she doesn't eat tonight she will also be a candidate for further treatment.If I do move him to quarantine I'll continue to feed the main tank metro soaked pellets. Parameters are ammonia/nitrite 0, nitrates under 10, ph 6.8. Angels and cardinals in the tank are doing well. There is no aggression in this tank. Any help greatly appreciated

 

[Mike Wise]

If you are getting the same problem with apistos from different sources - especially some from a good breeder - my guess is that you have a problem either in tank maintenance, foods, or the tank harbors some pathogen. Maintenance could be anything from water quality (pH, hardness) to how you do water changes. Do you have other bottom dwellers in the aquarium. If not, could there be something concentrated in the substrate that is causing the problem? Food could be a cause. Many apistos don't eat dry foods or just pick at it at best. Your angels & cardinals aren't so picky and may be eating nearly everything before the apistos decide to eat. This leaves them sifting for debris on the bottom. Could they be picking up some toxin or pathogen in this way? If I had this problem, the first thing I would do is start with apistos placed in a quarantine tank (no substrate, no lights, just a heater, filter and a few pieces of PVC pipe for hiding places) for 4 - 6 weeks. During this period I would feed mostly live and frozen foods. If they are healthy after 6 weeks, I'd put them in the community tank - and observe how they interact with the other fish. Are they behaving differently from when in the quarantine tank? Are they being picked on by other community members? Are they eating? After a couple of days they should be behaving as in the quarantine tank. If not, well the problem is with the community. If they come down with bloat after being in the community tank, then the tank is the problem.

 

[JessyB]

Thanks alot for replying. All of what you say makes sense. The diet is nls pellets, and he has had no problem getting to food. He does not face any aggression from the community either. Parameters are on point, i religiously change 50% water weekly, and ensure I don't over or under feed. The only hidden issue i wonder about is either the very fine sand subsrate possibly compacting and associated gases? I do try to sift it regularly though. Or perhaps dead/decaying plant leaves that go unnoticed? That's about all that I can think of. The breeder keeps her stock in the same temp as I do, and even harder water, ph of 7.0.

With that said, I got a better look at him today and it looks like he's got hole in the head...right on his fore heard. I've done the metro, and I just dosed salt at 1 tbl spoon per 5 gallons. His colour is better today, and he's slightly more with it but still not eating and laying on the substrate. Any further advice greatly appreciated. THanks.

 

[JessyB]

And no bottom feeders. I had considered corydoras but thought they may interfere with the apisto breeding. In terms of stirring the substrate, have i underestimated the importance of bottom feeders in terms of this and the overall health benefits tothe aquarium?

 

[flashbang]

Hi,they are not happy in that tank are they. What are those rocks in your second photo,i think there is some polution from something and i would either remove them to another tank or remove the decor and do a big water change and see how they react.

 

[gerald]

Might be bacterial, not a parasite. Read up on Mycobacterium. Diana Walstad has a good article at http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388.htm Click on "Mycobacteriosis, The Stealth Disease". Head/body sores, bloating, color changes, rapid breathing can all be symptoms. It can live forever in tanks, and often affects certain fish more than others, especially rainbowfish and soft-water cichlids.

I got a better look at him today and it looks like he's got hole in the head...right on his fore heard. I've done the metro, and I just dosed salt at 1 tbl spoon per 5 gallons. His colour is better today, and he's slightly more with it but still not eating and laying on the substrate. Any further advice greatly appreciated. THanks.

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree, gerald, it looks like fish tuberculosis of some kind. Sad to say that the best treatment is destruction of the fish and sterilization of the everything. Otherwise any new fish added to the tank risk getting the disease. It really proves the importance of having a quarantine tank and using it for every fish.

 

[Hmoobthor]

apisto caca are a bit sensitive to meds. You have to put a bit under the dose or even little. I have one that apprently was the boss of the tank and then one day, went into hiding and never came out to feed.

It later die and pass away...not even sure what happen to it. This was well over months after i did a treatment on a whole tank.

best thing is to treat he whole tank...

 

[JessyB]

Thanks for the help everyone, unfortunatly he died on Friday. The female seems to be coming around though. I'm wondering if whatever bad stuff the last ones brought in could have been still lingering around.

 

[JasonC]

JessyB, I'm feeling your pain. I have had a large number of these seemingly mysterious deaths also with Triple Reds, and also with GBR's.

Just as a general Q for everyone, how likely is this kind of scenario to be MB, or fish TB? I thought the above article was very informative, but did not get a good feel for what a recomended treatment was for an established tank, and whether highly infected fish can be rehabbed or should just be euthanized? Also, the article seems to poo poo the idea of breaking down and sterilizing tanks? Any thoughts?

 

[Mike Wise]

I think it's up to the hobbyist if he wants to tear down and sterilize the tank and destroy the fish. Personally, I would keep it going with the fish already in it, and not add any other fish to the tank for a year or more. Of course I have the luxury of having other tanks available.

 

[JasonC]

Mike, is there a reason for the year limit? Is it assumed that any fish with MB/Fish TB will die off within that year? Or that with a year of good maintenance, the levels of EM will self regulate to a level tolerable by the fish?

 

[Mike Wise]

More the latter. If all the fish die (unlikely, since some are more resistant to the disease than others) you can then sterilize everything. Until then you at least have a community tank. After a year, I would try a fully quarantined apisto in the tank to see if it survives. If it doesn't, I wouldn't try to add any others until the whole thank and everything in it was removed, destroyed or sterilized.

 

[JessyB]

Mike does the hole on the forehead indicate tb? Is it fair to assume that the pathogens from unhealthy apistos of past may have brought it into the tank and any new apisto's have been picking it up and dying for this reason?

A total breakdown is not something I want to do for obvious reasons. I will take your advice and wait no less than one year if I'm going to try to add any more to this tank. I can't stomach the idea of killing anymore of these really cool fish. I grew very attached very quickly to them, such personalitys. A cardinal tetra dies and there's little emotion, this is something different.

The two female sisters are quite cute actually, and have a really nice colour especially the very bright orange fins so I think i'll just let them be and live out there lives in here however long that may be. Thanks again.

 

[Mike Wise]

Lesions on the body are only one symptom of fish TB. The mycobacterium can be passed in a number of ways, usually by fish eating diseased fish that have died, but I think that it can lay dormant in living fish that are more resistant to the disease. Like I said, I personally would let things go as the are now and hope that there are no more losses. Then after a long time try another fish that I knew was healthy.

 

[gerald]

Individual fish can apparently develop enough immunity to Myco that they can live with it for many years, as long as they aren't exposed to high levels of it the first time (from fish with advanced stage Myco). So, remove any fish with obvious advanced symptoms (sores, bloating, wasting, etc) and the remaining fish may coexist with it. As they get old or stressed by other factors (diet, water qual, aggression) then the latent Myco in their bodies can start growing again and may eventually kill them if something else doesn't kill them first. Sometimes I think of Myco as an "advanced aquarists' disease" because it's the one you can't do anything about after you've learned how to avoid or control all the other common diseases that kill fish faster. Myco is extremely common in farmed fish (especially rams, gouramis, rainbows, danios) and there's really no practical way to avoid getting it unless you never buy new fish or plants. It lives in soil and water pretty much everywhere and doesn't require a host animal. Most tanks in most pet shops probably have it, and it's extremely difficult to kill with the usual sterilization methods. Heat will kill it (boiling or steaming) but bleach doesn't always work because of Myco's chemical-resistant coating. It can remain viable for years in a dry tank or filter, and it's been reported in many city water supply systems around the world. My advice is learn to recognize the symptoms and live with it.

BTW - Myco is fairly easy to diagnose in a freshly dead fish: cut open the belly and look at the kidney, liver and spleen. If Myco is present you'll see granulomas (look like yellow, tan or brown lumps or sand-grains) in these organs, as compared with smooth red-brown organs in un-infected fish. Before 40 I could see these easily without magnification; now I use a low-power magnifying lens available from office supply stores. This works best if you dont wait for the fish to die naturally: When it looks like there's no saving it (i.e stopped eating), either chop off the head or drop it in a cup of icewater, and then examine the organs. If the fish has already died on its own, the organs may already be blotchy-colored, making the Myco granulomas harder to see.

 

[CopabX]

I grew very attached very quickly to them, such personalitys. A cardinal tetra dies and there's little emotion, this is something different.

Maybe you want to grab some young guppies as a test subject for disease only though since they're idiot-proof to kill. If the problem is really bugging you you can also take some water from the main tank and raise some cheap fish in reduced water and similar filter media in a quarantine tank to see if they are affected the same way. If you have targeted the problem as disease, try taking out all the filter media and cycle the tank for a few days on just clean water. Hopefully this will rid of as much microorganisms as possible.

 

[Mike Wise]

Gerald makes some excellent points. Most tanks/fish carry diseases. Fish are designed to resist diseases. Only when something goes wrong and the fish become stressed do the diseases get the upper hand. Low stress environments: low stocking numbers, low aggression, proper water values (pH, dGH, µS), and quality food are the best way to prevent diseases. Oh, yes, and good quarantine practices.