Viejita ID...

[D 10]

Hello, masters. This question has been asked many times. However, I purchased it as a Singapore import, under the name A. Viejita Gold. But in recent years, these fish have generally been Macmasters. I wonder if my fish are Viejita or Macmaster? Thank you.

 

[Frank Hättich]

It's macmasteri.

 

[MacZ]

It's macmasteri.

Indeed classic A. macmasteri colourbreed, most often sold as "gold". These are also called "viejita II" in the trade to get higher prices. Some idiot also put a picture of these in the Wikipedia article on A. viejita and since then it's near impossible to set the record straight. This breed never was actual A. viejita, it is and always was A. macmasteri.

So, for everyone who hasn't bought these: Don't buy! You're being scammed if you pay more than the equivalent of 15€ or 20 CAN$ per specimen.

 

[D 10]

Indeed classic A. macmasteri colourbreed, most often sold as "gold". These are also called "viejita II" in the trade to get higher prices. Some idiot also put a picture of these in the Wikipedia article on A. viejita and since then it's near impossible to set the record straight. This breed never was actual A. viejita, it is and always was A. macmasteri.

So, for everyone who hasn't bought these: Don't buy! You're being scammed if you pay more than the equivalent of 15€ or 20 CAN$ per specimen.

The situation is clearly understood, Mr. Master. I paid around 37-38 euros. I hope it's reasonable. Have a good day...

 

[MacZ]

So sorry to hear!

 

[D 10]

Hello again. Although we paid a reasonable price for Turkey's conditions, I wish it were "Viejita II" as you suggested. Apparently, when this variety is considered a Macmaster, it's called "Red Sholder Gold." I'm sharing clearer images. Have a good day...

 

[MacZ]

"Viejita II", "Gold", "Red Shoulder Gold" are all names for the same colour breed of A. macmasteri, which you have. Just to clear that up. Those are tradenames, and there is no standard in tradenames. You can call your merchandise whatever you want, when it comes to breeds that don't occur in nature.

After looking it up, indeed you paid a reasonable price for your country, so I am glad you didn't pay more than usual.

 

[D 10]

Indeed classic A. macmasteri colourbreed, most often sold as "gold". These are also called "viejita II" in the trade to get higher prices. Some idiot also put a picture of these in the Wikipedia article on A. viejita and since then it's near impossible to set the record straight. This breed never was actual A. viejita, it is and always was A. macmasteri.

So, for everyone who hasn't bought these: Don't buy! You're being scammed if you pay more than the equivalent of 15€ or 20 CAN$ per specimen.

Thanks for the detailed information.

In my country, even a standard pair of A. Macmasteri shoes currently costs between 30 and 40 euros. I was even happy to buy them at a good price. Sometimes, when it comes to hobbies, the rest can be a detail. Have a good day.

 

[anewbie]

Should be consider fraud for Viejita to be used for a mac. It is really shameful - i thin it is either asia or cz mass breeders doing this sort of thing. the other thing i've seen is to take tank raised nijjensi and tack on rio whatever and double the price. At least those are still nijjensi.

 

[Mike Wise]

My question is who is the blame? The retailer, who is not an expert in apistos but sells the fish as listed by their supplier? Or is it the hobbyist who doesn't know the difference. When I give talks this is the first slide:

 

[anewbie]

My question is who is the blame? The retailer, who is not an expert in apistos but sells the fish as listed by their supplier? Or is it the hobbyist who doesn't know the difference. When I give talks this is the first slide:

View attachment 17308

I blame the fish farm for deliberately changing the names to mislead the naive consumer.

 

[MacZ]

I blame the fish farm for deliberately changing the names to mislead the naive consumer.

If there is anyone to blame at all. Alternatively the smaller breeders the farms get their novelties from. You have several kinds of breeders.

- enthusiasts (probably most people here on the forum) breeding for fun.
- small "for profit" operations
- small linebreeders keen on creating novelty breeds
- fish farms

The lines between them may be very blurry. The farms usually buy novelty breeds from the linebreeders and colour breeds and wild type specimens from cooperating enthusiasts just to multiply them. That's how the system usually (!) works. And the big market supplyiers just copy-paste for yield and raely for quality.

 

[Mike Wise]

I blame the fish farm for deliberately changing the names to mislead the naive consumer.

Do they actually change the names to mislead? Or do they use the same name that the fish has been called for decades? These are the names their customers (retail outlets) know. None are true taxonomists. They are business people trying to make a living. IMHO 'caveat emptor' on the part of the hobbyists is one's best protection.

 

[anewbie]

Do they actually change the names to mislead? Or do they use the same name that the fish has been called for decades? These are the names their customers (retail outlets) know. None are true taxonomists. They are business people trying to make a living. IMHO 'caveat emptor' on the part of the hobbyists is one's best protection.

I would say that labeling macs as viejita is new esp blond macs. Also tacking rio on to the names of Nijjensi just started the past year or two. So yea i think there is definitely an uptick to capitalize on names that raise the prices.

 

[D 10]

I'm enjoying watching the masters debate this etymology and moral context. However, in many countries, you order by name, and when it arrives, you thank God and buy the fish. Have a good day...

 

[Mike Wise]

I would say that labeling macs as viejita is new esp blond macs.

By new do you mean since the late 1980s? As for the blond ones who knows? Maybe they were bred from macs that were erroneously identified in the past. As for adding river names to known species, maybe the supplier sees the fish and gives them a name of a fish that to him looks exactly like that species. Few have taxonomic knowledge and often use books with misidentified photos. Your A. nijsseni is a good example of this. Most hobbyists (and suppliers) would be hard pressed to recognize A. nijjsseni from A. sp. Matses or A. sp. Oregon. I personally don't accept names without seeing the fish or at least decent photos, but that's just me.

 

[anewbie]

By new do you mean since the late 1980s? As for the blond ones who knows? Maybe they were bred from macs that were erroneously identified in the past. As for adding river names to known species, maybe the supplier sees the fish and gives them a name of a fish that to him looks exactly like that species. Few have taxonomic knowledge and often use books with misidentified photos. Your A. nijsseni is a good example of this. Most hobbyists (and suppliers) would be hard pressed to recognize A. nijjsseni from A. sp. Matses or A. sp. Oregon. I personally don't accept names without seeing the fish or at least decent photos, but that's just me.

My point is when they add the river they up the price by 50%. Why would a farmed a. nijjensi be a different price than a rarmed a. nijjensi rio tigre ? Why does rio tigre demand a premium price

(of course one could argue the person who pays the premium gets what they deserved).

 

[Mike Wise]

My point is when they add the river they up the price by 50%. Why would a farmed a. nijjensi be a different price than a rarmed a. nijjensi rio tigre ? Why does rio tigre demand a premium price

(of course one could argue the person who pays the premium gets what they deserved).

I agree with your last statement. Know your fish ... or expect the consequences.