why medicate fish?

[aspen]

many people have watched their fish get thinner and expire or watch new fish or established fish die. all of these fish were likely raised healthy, but developed a problem which was either not treated properly, or the fish was medicated too late, or improperly.

medicating fish is an art. if you wait too long to treat your fish, death will likely be the result. the list of parasites that can infect your fish is very long. and it is likely that you are not going to be able to provide a correct diagnosis, except with the aid of a microscope. but, there are many things that likely are present in your aquarium fish, which can be treated for, with no harm to the fish provided they are treated before the fish shows signs of stress from them.

gill flukes are likely in your aquarium, and the more fish that you get from different places, the more likely your fish have them. they are a very persistent problem, but an otherwise healthy fish can easily live through a treatment for gill flukes, provided that the fish is not in the late stages. the late stages would be severe gill damage, followed by a bacterial or viral infection which the fish is suffering from, because of this damage.

let me tell you what i do for these buggers. i treat all new fish with quickcure or formalin. this will clean the fish from most external parasites, and any healthy fish will live through a treatment of quick cure, ime. i acclimate the new fish into a small tank with an airstone and an aquaclear filter with no media. (i don't waste my filtration media on fish that are suspect. all new fish are suspect.) the fish stay in this tank for a couple of days, for observation. on the third day or so, i set up another tank, and treat the first tank with quick cure or formalin for 4 hours. then i net them out of this tank into the new tank set-up. some fish will get a second treatment. then i may treat for intestinal worms. if nothing comes out, i consider this fish to be 'clean', and move it to it's new home, complete with bio-filtration.

please note, that for the tougher strains of flukes, they are not killed by formalin. the fluke falls off of the fish and curls up on the bottom of the tank (excapsulates). this is why it is VERY IMPORTANT to remove the fish to a clean tank. the fluke on the bottom is quite capable of reviving, to lay it's egg, and re-infestation will be the result.

these steps are practiced by many of the top breeders, and i consider it to be prudent for anyone who has a large amount of time and money invested in their fish stock.

meds are not 'the devil', unless you treat fish improperly. improper use of meds is the number 1 cause of fish death. you must be able to follow directions to the letter, and if you do, your fish problems will be greatly reduced. imo, most viral or bacterial infections are caused as a secondary result of damage caused by parasites destroying the membranes of the fish they inhabit- the gill membranes, skin or stomach lining, etc.

i have treated very tiny discus (pea sized), and other 'sensitive' fish. as long as the fish is healthy to start, there will should be no damage to the fish yet, the parasitic damage will cease, providing relief to the fish. if the fish dies from the med, it is likely that either you did it wrong, or the fish was on it's way out anyway.

note: there is absolutely NO SUBSTITUE for clean water of the right parms, the right temperature and good food ie, properly fish husbandry. no med will give the benefits this will. but meds are a tool to keeping your fish in good health, used properly.

rick

 

[mak]

Why medicate?

I'll add another useful treatment:

I've found that I have to dose any new fish (even tetras) with metronidazole (anti-protozoan). Maybe Hexamita just runs rampant through my LFS?

If for some reason I forget to dose, even when I quarantine, my rams will show me first by going off their food. Then the apistos in another day or two. By that point I have to dose every tank in the house.

I was quite the killer of dwarf cichlids & angelfish before I discovered this... :cry:

BTW, metronidazole is also used for cats, dogs, and humans. Chat up your local vet & you might be able to get a prescription & buy it in a pharmacy for a heck of a lot less than the "special" dose for fish.

mk

 

[aspen]

mak how do you apply the met? i get all my dwarfs eating my discus beefheart mix right away, and met is much more effective applied in food. do you treat the water?

rick

 

[Bissot_J]

let me tell you what i do for these buggers. i treat all new fish with quickcure or formalin. this will clean the fish from most external parasites, and any healthy fish will live through a treatment of quick cure, ime. i acclimate the new fish into a small tank with an airstone and an aquaclear filter with no media. (i don't waste my filtration media on fish that are suspect. all new fish are suspect.) the fish stay in this tank for a couple of days, for observation. on the third day or so, i set up another tank, and treat the first tank with quick cure of formalin for 4 hours. then i net them out of this tank into the new tank set-up. some fish will get a second treatment. then i may treat for intestinal worms. if nothing comes out, i consider this fish to be 'clean', and move it to it's new home, complete with bio-filtration.

Hi Aspen,
I read your message with a lot of interest.
Can you give us more details on your process.

the dose of quick cure by gallons ?
etc....

thanks a lot

 

[aspen]

ok, here goes.

first i acclimate the new fish to my aged tapwater, gh8, kh 4, ph 7.8. most of the fish i get are in this water anyways, as this is the arms of the tap in toronto. after a couple of days, i do a large water change, to get them used to the water they will be going into. i set up another 5 gal tank beside, which i fill with my tap and set up another filter and heater. apply quick cure at 1 drop per gal, or formalin at 1 ml per 10 gal, making sure that there is good aeration. after a 4 hour treatment, net the fish and put them into the other tank. the reason for moving them, is that if any flukes were present, they will be still alive on the bottom of the tank. this ensures they do not revive, or lay their egg, to re-infest the fish. another treatment is ok, if you feel that it is necessary, or want to be sure. i always watch the fish during treatment, if any undue stress seems to be present, take them right out.

we try and get nice healthy wild specimens, and this means, surely parasites. although the fish has lived to this point with the parasites, this does not mean they will live for long this way. many times we watch the fish go downhill, not knowing why. once a fish 'crashes' the end is near. it often takes quite a bit of abuse before it crashes. but by relieving the fish of it's parasite load, we are then able to apply good treatment to further strengthen the fish.

often we have no idea that flukes or other gill parasites are present, until we get small hatches or low survival rate of the fry. if this is the first time you notice the problem, it is too late, imo. i have never lost a healthy fish to this treatment, and it has seemed to make them more vigorous, imo. sometimes the fish does not seem to be handling the treatment well. i attribute this to gill damage already present. i will move the fish before the treatment is finished, but will try and strengthen the fish, and attempt later.

note: the treatment tank filter heater etc, should be left dry after treatment for a few days, to ensure the tank is ok for another use.

hth, rick

 

[Bissot_J]

Thanks alot aspen for this usefull explanaton.

 

[Richgrenfell]

Some people treat new fish even if they don't show signs of illness. I don't.
I consider myself quite seasoned at treating fish, but i need to limit that statement to the meds I know how to use. As aspen pointed out, there is a long, long list of disease and parasites that fish can become infested with, and the list of treatments is even longer. I use PP for flukes. I have found that after you treat flukes with PP re-infestation is really very rare. However, PP is a very touchy med, and should not be used unless you are experienced, or are under the advicxe of someone who is. For simple things like torn fins, small body wounds and such, I have found that a bit of rock salt, and a temp of 85 for a few days works quite well. I have also treated ich, and fungases with the above treatment....

Rich

 

[aspen]

i don't use anything for ick or oodimium. that is solved by a simple heat treatment. for ick, 86 for 5 days, and for oodinium, 3 days at 90 deg. i have treated dwarfs for both of these, and it works fine. i am not experienced with salt for dwarfs, and due to their sensitivity to high conductivity water, i would hesitate using more than 1/2 tbsp per 10 gal. (maybe i'm wrong on that.) i would just use the heat, with maybe some stresscoat if they appear to have fin or other irritations after the heat treatment.

i like pp for flukes, but it should not be repeated more than once a week, due to the damage it does to the slime coat. i used it once on discus fry, then followed it in 3 days with formalin when i could get it. you MUST retreat for flukes, because the eggs are imbedded in the gills, and will hatch out in 3- 5 days, and reinfest the fish.

the thought here is though, wild fish and tank bred fish will carry different kinds of gill parasites. wild fish will almost certainly carry parasites, but they are not as hard to deal with, because they haven't become as resistant to meds. tank bred fish MAY have flukes, and if they do, the flukes MAY be really hard to kill.

i used pp for plants and cleaning equipment brfore i felt confident enough to use it on fish. it works, and works well, but the first time i used it on fish, i was REALLY paranoid, and barely left the room for 4 hours while treating.

imo, if you deal with the external parasites, and dose with an anti-worm med, you can consider the fish to be 'clean', unless you can see otherwise. (ie, stringy poo, a sign of hex- another really nasty discus disease, and likely lots of other types of fish too.) then, do not mix these fosh with others, until they are 'clean' too. ie breed them clean and 1/2 of the fry won't cack for no apparent reason.

rick

 

[Richgrenfell]

<<not experienced with salt for dwarfs, and due to their sensitivity to high conductivity water, i would hesitate using more than 1/2 tbsp per 10 gal. (maybe i'm wrong on that.)>>

I use a teaspoon to 10 gallons actually. This method came to me from a guy who has been breeding fish longer that I have been alive. He claims that it helps to calm the fish, and to help them maintain slimecoat as the fish fights off the disease. i must admit, that the "dashing" about the tank and such ceases immediately when I add the salt. I have never had any problems with rocksalt on softwater fish.

What kind of mix did you use for treating plants with PP? I bought a beautiful Rubin sword, and a week later it started showing blackbeard algae. Hey.....did you know that royal farlowellas will eat that stuff up?

Rich
[/quote]

 

[aspen]

thanks for the info on the salt.

for pp, i make up a stock solution, 1/8 tsp per litre. then i add this to water till it turns a nice pinky colour, not deep purple. i put the plants in for 10 mins, then remove them to water the same temp, say 80 deg. (actually i fill 2 buckets at once). this is supposed to kill snails but i hear it doesn't kill the eggs. so, i guess that is a waste of time. now i just q them. i haven't seen any hair algae though.

i like to grow them out before i use them in my tanks anyway. i'm not a fan of the little plastic barrels in my planted tank. in a bb tank, you can see if there are any snails.

at the moment, i'm keeping 2 small twig cats, and a whiptail, and seeing if i have any luck keeping them alive. we'll see, i lost 2 batches of twigs so far. i'm half thinking of following the advice of a post i read somewhere, about treating s/a cats with met, as they seem to have a lot of problems with intestinal flagellates. i'm watching for the signs first though. met isn't easy on fish, ime. i'm poop watching.

rick

 

[Richgrenfell]

to tell you the truth, i suspect that it was the farlowellas that gave me my problem. I got in a small group of wild caughts a couple of months ago. i wasn't all that careful with quarantining them, and that is why I suspected them. The thing is that they have never shown any signs of infestation at all. So...i dunno. flubendazole does a nice job on snails....

Rich