Ultrasoft Clearwater Livestock Options for Male Panduro

[Apistonaut]

Hello all,

I recently bred what I believed to be a sibling pair of A. Panduro A 183. These are the common A. Panduro lacking a striped pattern on the caudal fin. A few males expressed long black caudal spots, one of which I took as my prize for the labor of raising -- the rest I was able to sell. Patterns on the females were more diverse than I thought, with some having large, connected ink splotches reaching the belly, and some others having disconnected ink blots. Age seemed to expand this spot for females, and the juvenile males I found for it to retreat into nothing -- revealing the silver/grey and blue hue found on the rest of them. All juveniles expressed that midbody black mark, interestingly. Parents were removed at about 3-4 weeks. Male parent played a caretaking role in the first week by guarding the spawn site and school while also grabbing and relocating by mouth like female. After some time, female parent became more aggressive towards male. After about 1 month, both parents were removed.

In all, I had about 50 fry that I was able to sell from a single go. The only losses I had was a 1" male that I may have prematurely removed and put into my tea-stained Orinoco 20 gallon where he resided as the sole Apistogramma among some Paracheirodon axelrodi and a variety of Rummynose tetra that I was unsure of. He escaped a couple of times over the course of 48 hours, but we were unable to catch in time. Parameters were very close to its breeding tank, about 80 TDS, 6.7pH, and 78F. I had another spontaneous loss of a 3/4" male in the breeding tank.

The lot were a little unimpressive from what I've seen online of other A 183, and I worried that I didn't provide the correct food, diet, or environment for them to completely develop good coloration. Temperature ranged from 75-79F over the months, and the M:F ratio was about 1:3

I am moving up to another show tank, a rimless 36 gallon.

I intend on using an acid buffering pellet aquasoil and a planting scheme that most here won't find interesting enough to share.

I am seeking some suggestions on a more uncommon monomorphic tetra to stock, particularly under 6cm.
I will be keeping some of the Paracheirodon axelrodi, but would like to introduce another Hemigrammus type tetra.

I have found Tucano Tetra (Tucanoichthys tucano) from Peru, Peruvian Tetra (Hyphessobrycon peruvianus), a similar looking Characin to the Tucano, and lastly the Loreto Tetra (Hyphessobrycon loretoensis), which is found much further north.

What I find attractive is the strong, black line with yellow coloration.
I believe the Tucano Tetra may prove to be expensive and difficult, as I won't likely achieve a necessary pH below 6. They are also rather dimorphic.
The Peruvian Tetra appears more robust and in line with the torpedo shape I am seeking, and has the added bonus of being monomorphic, something I really find attractive.
Loreto Tetras also share some characteristics with these visually.

Are there any other suggestions? I have also found some appealing variety of Penguin tetra, but they appear a bit too large for the setting.

Attached are images of the A. Panduro batch. I would include the tetra I am considering, but I do not have any common permissions to share.

Best

Unfortunately the local fish store's lighting washed most of the color out in the above image.

 

[MacZ]

I intend on using an acid buffering pellet aquasoil and a planting scheme that most here won't find interesting enough to share.

Only one remark: I find soil to expensive and not useful for use in softwater due to its properties.

After reading I'm a bit bewildered by your aims with the pH. The ec is the most important parameter and 2ith your EC and TDS readings the pH is almost irrelevant. If you are patient enough leaf litter, botanicals and additional hunic substances can bring down the pH to 5 safely. You just have to be ok with it taking 3 months to get down there.

 

[Apistonaut]

Only one remark: I find soil to expensive and not useful for use in softwater due to its properties.

After reading I'm a bit bewildered by your aims with the pH. The ec is the most important parameter and 2ith your EC and TDS readings the pH is almost irrelevant. If you are patient enough leaf litter, botanicals and additional hunic substances can bring down the pH to 5 safely. You just have to be ok with it taking 3 months to get down there.

What are my aims with pH? I haven’t mentioned any aims other than some slight acidity. How would I achieve a clearwater tank with litter and botanicals, that doesn’t make sense to me. That’s what my black water tank is for.

 

[anewbie]

I've been happy with ember tetra; they are not cheap ($10 at many locations) but not super expensive either. There is a blueberry tetra. Personally i prefer (as i've said a lot) n. marilynae which are nice and small and relatively cheap.

If you want something exciting n. epesi but they are of course 6x more expensive.

 

[Apistoguy52]

Love the tucano tetra from Brazil (Tucanoicthys tucano), fantastic dither, and small enough to not bother fry. I’m not sure I’d describe them as dimorphic, I can’t tell the boys from the girls, but there are alway fry. The blueberry tetra (Hyphessobrycon wadai) is absolutely spectacular when the males are excited, absolutely sexually dimorphic fish, and an epic fry predator.

 

[MacZ]

What are my aims with pH? I haven’t mentioned any aims other than some slight acidity. How would I achieve a clearwater tank with litter and botanicals, that doesn’t make sense to me. That’s what my black water tank is for.

I might have phrased it wrong, sorry. You mentioned to get problems getting the pH down to 6 if you went for Tucano tetras, which is neither necessary (as I mentiond EC is key) nor impossible. Leaf litter an botanicals are not a peculiarity of blackwater habitats. You find it in all softwater habitats from whitewater varzea forests, to clearwater morichales to blackwater igapós. True blackwater is almost unachievable in aquariums, so basically all softwater tanks may, at best, end up in the (higher value definition) clearwater range of EC around 20 and pH somewhere between 5.0 and 6.5. Per scientific definition clearwater primarily shows an EC of about 15microS/cm and only secondarily pH around 6.
pH is not a primary factor in the definition of softwater types, it's just EC.
In the end I just wanted to shift your perspective on the definition of the water typology. You seemed to be focused on a factor that doesn't matter, actually.

 

[MacZ]

I’m not sure I’d describe them as dimorphic,

Me neither. In stained water it's almost impossible to distinguish, in uncoloured water the metallic sheen is a bit more pronounced in what could be males (never bothered sexing them when I had them).

 

[anewbie]

I've been happy with ember tetra; they are not cheap ($10 at many locations) but not super expensive either. There is a blueberry tetra. Personally i prefer (as i've said a lot) n. marilynae which are nice and small and relatively cheap.

If you want something exciting n. epesi but they are of course 6x more expensive.

Not sure why i wrote ember; i meant morse code tetra.

 

[Mike Wise]

If you want a "show tank", then any tetra will work except true blackwater species. Most of these can be acclimated to clear, soft water, too. My only recommendation is that you do not add pairs of apistos.

 

[martin_c]

I remember male Tucanoichthys tucano being quite territorial. It wouldn't bother the Apistogrammas though.

 

[Apistonaut]

I've been happy with ember tetra; they are not cheap ($10 at many locations) but not super expensive either. There is a blueberry tetra. Personally i prefer (as i've said a lot) n. marilynae which are nice and small and relatively cheap.

If you want something exciting n. epesi but they are of course 6x more expensive.

Great to hear from you, again!

We have a solid selection of wild embers nearby, I’ll give them another glance!

 

[Apistonaut]

If you want a "show tank", then any tetra will work except true blackwater species. Most of these can be acclimated to clear, soft water, too. My only recommendation is that you do not add pairs of apistos.

No pairs! Have been giving soft lectures to friends of mine who keep finding a batch of fry in their community tanks among their line breds.

Seeking a more unique variety of characin/tetra, lately. I’m finding much of what interests us is the far western Amazonian blackwater species from Peru. I know this is primarily an Apistogramma/oid forum, but I’m not active anywhere else.

Thanks Mike.

 

[Apistonaut]

I might have phrased it wrong, sorry. You mentioned to get problems getting the pH down to 6 if you went for Tucano tetras, which is neither necessary (as I mentiond EC is key) nor impossible. Leaf litter an botanicals are not a peculiarity of blackwater habitats. You find it in all softwater habitats from whitewater varzea forests, to clearwater morichales to blackwater igapós. True blackwater is almost unachievable in aquariums, so basically all softwater tanks may, at best, end up in the (higher value definition) clearwater range of EC around 20 and pH somewhere between 5.0 and 6.5. Per scientific definition clearwater primarily shows an EC of about 15microS/cm and only secondarily pH around 6.
pH is not a primary factor in the definition of softwater types, it's just EC.
In the end I just wanted to shift your perspective on the definition of the water typology. You seemed to be focused on a factor that doesn't matter, actually.

Thanks for the rephrase! Are there tannin-poor species of litter you recommend with humic and other weak acids? I suppose all organic matter roughly becomes acidic over time. We recently found a trove of speckled alder, which by all accounts are tannin/humic bombs.

Those have produced about a pH of 6-6.2 alone in my “blackwater” tank, the lowest I’ve achieved over sand.

I’m simply unable to show EC figures without an instrument right now.

I’m in a mixed coniferous/arboreal range in the American Great Lakes region, so plenty of maples, oaks and beech, and some hard to find wetland varieties.

From what I’ve read, I don’t feel comfortable buying Tucanos at $10-20 a pop and finding that they won’t thrive at 6.5, where I can achieve with RO and nitrogen alone.

 

[Apistonaut]

Love the tucano tetra from Brazil (Tucanoicthys tucano), fantastic dither, and small enough to not bother fry. I’m not sure I’d describe them as dimorphic, I can’t tell the boys from the girls, but there are alway fry. The blueberry tetra (Hyphessobrycon wadai) is absolutely spectacular when the males are excited, absolutely sexually dimorphic fish, and an epic fry predator.

Thanks for the account! I’ve seen some varying hues of yellow, which I assumed was a male/female dimorphism.

I’ll have another look. Not an incredible amount of information on them.

 

[MacZ]

Thanks for the rephrase! Are there tannin-poor species of litter you recommend with humic and other weak acids? I suppose all organic matter roughly becomes acidic over time. We recently found a trove of speckled alder, which by all accounts are tannin/humic bombs.

Yes, if you just want to avoid the colouration focus on oak leaves. All of these things contain all kinds of organic acids and all release them during decomposition. Indeed 2 alder cones can stain the water very dark over night.

Those have produced about a pH of 6-6.2 alone in my “blackwater” tank, the lowest I’ve achieved over sand.

I use a technique where I add lots of homemade extract from alder cones, oak and beech leaves and organic rooibos. The material is brewed over with RO water like a tea, steeped over night, roughly filtered trough a tea sieve and into the tank. I used 2 Liters weekly for a 90 Liter tank. The used leaves were the only things from the stuff I added to the tank and let it just do it's thing.
After 3 months I cracked the 6.0, after 6 months 5.5, after 9 months and beyond a stable 5 - 5.5.
But just as tea becomes lighter when you add lemon juice with dropping pH the water in the tank becomes lighter. When I had to dismantle my tank in February the water was chrystal clear, firm 5.5 pH, a layer of 4cm of mulm on the bottom under the leave litter. This is what I alwayys would want in any softwater tank.
The types of water are just not as sharply divided when you go by what you see and acidity alone. I have seen what whas chemically blackwater looking not a bit tannin coloured, while I have seen faux blackwater with EC over 500 and pH beyond 8 looking like the Rio Negro itself in many many aquariums.

I’m simply unable to show EC figures without an instrument right now.

Not a problem atm.

I’m in a mixed coniferous/arboreal range in the American Great Lakes region, so plenty of maples, oaks and beech, and some hard to find wetland varieties.

From my experience maple is not very useful because it a. retains quite a lot of sugars when the leaves are shed, and b. they decompose very fast. I would recommend sticking to oak and beech. those are the best you can use. they're also first choice here in central Europe. I envy your source for alder a bit.

From what I’ve read, I don’t feel comfortable buying Tucanos at $10-20 a pop and finding that they won’t thrive at 6.5, where I can achieve with RO and nitrogen alone.

I completely get it. I can tell you, they do well in 6.5 but with I would try to get EC as low as possible for them. If you get it down below 50µS/cm you are in safe territory I recon. Of couse there are no guarantees, but I'd be comfortable with doing it. pH can go lower slowly.

 

[Apistonaut]

Yes, if you just want to avoid the colouration focus on oak leaves. All of these things contain all kinds of organic acids and all release them during decomposition. Indeed 2 alder cones can stain the water very dark over night.

I use a technique where I add lots of homemade extract from alder cones, oak and beech leaves and organic rooibos. The material is brewed over with RO water like a tea, steeped over night, roughly filtered trough a tea sieve and into the tank. I used 2 Liters weekly for a 90 Liter tank. The used leaves were the only things from the stuff I added to the tank and let it just do it's thing.
After 3 months I cracked the 6.0, after 6 months 5.5, after 9 months and beyond a stable 5 - 5.5.
But just as tea becomes lighter when you add lemon juice with dropping pH the water in the tank becomes lighter. When I had to dismantle my tank in February the water was chrystal clear, firm 5.5 pH, a layer of 4cm of mulm on the bottom under the leave litter. This is what I alwayys would want in any softwater tank.
The types of water are just not as sharply divided when you go by what you see and acidity alone. I have seen what whas chemically blackwater looking not a bit tannin coloured, while I have seen faux blackwater with EC over 500 and pH beyond 8 looking like the Rio Negro itself in many many aquariums.

Not a problem atm.

From my experience maple is not very useful because it a. retains quite a lot of sugars when the leaves are shed, and b. they decompose very fast. I would recommend sticking to oak and beech. those are the best you can use. they're also first choice here in central Europe. I envy your source for alder a bit.

I completely get it. I can tell you, they do well in 6.5 but with I would try to get EC as low as possible for them. If you get it down below 50µS/cm you are in safe territory I recon. Of couse there are no guarantees, but I'd be comfortable with doing it. pH can go lower slowly.

Thanks again.

To achieve a low EC, am I simply keeping the TDS low with strict use of RO/DI? Are there any interventions that compete for ions out of the water, and are the weak organic acids helpful?

I won't dive too deep, since I'm sure there are plenty of blackwater/low EC writeups here, already. I can search on my own.

Do you find acid buffering aquasoils contribute to total ion despite competing for carbonates?

I'm glad to hear Tucanos can tolerate 6.5.

 

[MacZ]

To achieve a low EC, am I simply keeping the TDS low with strict use of RO/DI?

RO is all you need. If your RO unit works correctly the resulting RO water should have an EC of under 10 µS/cm. That's plenty sufficient as source water for a softwater tank. A DI stage is NOT a must-have. I have never worked with one and my tank always kept an EC under 40µS/cm

Are there any interventions that compete for ions out of the water, and are the weak organic acids helpful?

What do you mean? You can use emersed plants like Epipremnum and Monstera to keep EC extra low, also staying clear of soil and limestone is very helpful. The acids will not have much impact on the EC.

I won't dive too deep, since I'm sure there are plenty of blackwater/low EC writeups here, already. I can search on my own.

Take a look at my tank (linked in my signature) if you like.

Do you find acid buffering aquasoils contribute to total ion despite competing for carbonates?

Most soil products are enriched with nutrients and have buffering capacity. The stuff works best in aquascapes and shrimp tanks (it was developed to keep bee shrimp) with a. CO2 injection and b. if the water has a GH between 2-5° and a measurable KH of around 2°. So if you want actual softwater it will do nothing for you except for an initial drop in pH, followed by increased EC and if you don't use water with measurable hardness it will be depleted after 2 years instead of the 6 months to 1 year it's designed for. That's why I find soil not useful in keeping Apistogramma and dwarf cichlids in general. It's not fulfilling any purpose and is much too expensive. Additionally I am of the opinion the cichlids should have access to fine sand to chew.

I'm glad to hear Tucanos can tolerate 6.5.

It's most often not the pH, it's the EC that determines whether a blackwater species works in a tank or not. That's why pH-chasers are often dumbfounded if their readings should add up following their train of thought, and the fish still drop like flies.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Edit what @MacZ says.

To achieve a low EC, am I simply keeping the TDS low with strict use of RO/DI?

That is the one. Conductivity is a linear scale from DI water at ~2 microS / cm, (it isn't 0 microS, because of the ionic component (H+) of dissolved CO2) to sea water at ~ 50,000 microS (50 milliS).

As an example of "freshwater", our tap water supply is from a deep limestone aquifer, and is about 700 microS (mainly Ca++ and 2HCO3- ions) That equates to about 18dGH & 18dKH and fully saturated with CaCO3.

but with I would try to get EC as low as possible for them. If you get it down below 50µS/cm you are in safe territory I recon.

So you can see that @MacZ's suggestion is water with very few ionic solutes. In low conductivity water pH isn't a useful measurement (it is difficult to measure and a movable feast).

Do you find acid buffering aquasoils contribute to total ion despite competing for carbonates?

They will swap bound H+ ions for each Ca++ ion in solution, ions of higher valency conduct more electricity, but it is "ion exchange" <"https://www.lenntech.com/Data-sheets/Ion-Exchange-for-Dummies-RH.pdf">.

I use a technique where I add lots of homemade extract from alder cones, oak and beech leaves and organic rooibos. The material is brewed over with RO water like a tea, steeped over night, roughly filtered trough a tea sieve and into the tank.

Organic compounds would contribute to the TDS, but they don't contribute to conductivity (they aren't charged). Personally I would be very, very reluctant to have a tank with very low conductivity water and no humic, tannic or fulvic compounds.

cheers Darrel

 

[Apistonaut]

RO is all you need. If your RO unit works correctly the resulting RO water should have an EC of under 10 µS/cm. That's plenty sufficient as source water for a softwater tank. A DI stage is NOT a must-have. I have never worked with one and my tank always kept an EC under 40µS/cm

What do you mean? You can use emersed plants like Epipremnum and Monstera to keep EC extra low, also staying clear of soil and limestone is very helpful. The acids will not have much impact on the EC.

Take a look at my tank (linked in my signature) if you like.

Most soil products are enriched with nutrients and have buffering capacity. The stuff works best in aquascapes and shrimp tanks (it was developed to keep bee shrimp) with a. CO2 injection and b. if the water has a GH between 2-5° and a measurable KH of around 2°. So if you want actual softwater it will do nothing for you except for an initial drop in pH, followed by increased EC and if you don't use water with measurable hardness it will be depleted after 2 years instead of the 6 months to 1 year it's designed for. That's why I find soil not useful in keeping Apistogramma and dwarf cichlids in general. It's not fulfilling any purpose and is much too expensive. Additionally I am of the opinion the cichlids should have access to fine sand to chew.

It's most often not the pH, it's the EC that determines whether a blackwater species works in a tank or not. That's why pH-chasers are often dumbfounded if their readings should add up following their train of thought, and the fish still drop like flies.

Thanks again, @MacZ.
I'll have to infer my EC for now by strictly using RO/DI like I have been -- my cheap reader broke. I have some stones from Colorado that have been leaching some hardness into my blackwater tank, inching me towards neutral lately. Surely those have leached some calcium and magnesium ions, so I may re-scape my Orinoco tank with more wood and remove them. I may decide to keep the male A. Panduro in there, as we both value the fine sand : ).

I have quite a bit of Pothos hanging from it right now, but I haven't introduced any floating plants, which I will do. The lighting on the white sand creates a lot of staining which requires me to remove the sand to stir, a really fruitless task when trying to create a layer of working mulm.

I'll start identifying the oaks around me and hope for a good catkin turnout on the Alnus Incanas that I found on my walk. Buying bulk almond leaves has worked well, but I see no need. The effect with the quantity I use is primarily visual. I have not been able to replicate or find an alternative for the female alder catkins. Incredibly good visual effect and a measurable change in pH over time.

As far as the display tank, I haven't quite decided on a long term strategy for an acidic clearwater tank. My girlfriend recently received her PhD in Chemistry, so she was fire-tuned to keeping zebra danios at their upmost for her lab before research. She worked on protein vehicles for cancer treatment, so the danios were instrumental. pH was her livelihood to keeping their organs bioavailable for testing, etc. Rather unfortunate, but they are required to be stressed in environments beyond what's comfortable in order to produce certain proteins that she designs for expression.

I think between the two of us, we should be able to find a strategy, haha.

​

 

[MacZ]

I have some stones from Colorado that have been leaching some hardness into my blackwater tank, inching me towards neutral lately. Surely those have leached some calcium and magnesium ions,

Definitely. Limestone usually reaches equilibrium at a GH between 8 and 10° and corresponding KH. Once that is reached it curves back up after a RO waterchange within days.

I think between the two of us, we should be able to find a strategy, haha.

Yes, I think so. And maybe this will also be helpful:

Clearwater river (river type) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When I started working with softwater the table in that article was worth pure gold.