Starting a firs blackwater aquarium nitrogen cycle

[shamedonor]

Hi! How do I start the nitrogen cycle in my very first blackwater low pH aquarium? The tank is a 20gal for a couple of apisto panduro, a HOB filter and a small sponge air filter, sand, old driftwood piece, dragon stone, coconut piece and caves, light, cover. There are some floating plants. The fish is already in. I know that is not optimal but I had no other running aquarium safe for a couple of small apistos to receive them better.

From what I read, the nitrogen cycle bacteria in a low pH acidic blackwater aquarium are not the same bacteria strain as the ones in the regular water tank, the nitrite stage seems to be absent.
Currently I got some sponge material from another regular water tank with bacteria on it and put it in the future blackwater one. The tank is already running on almost purely RO water (tds=120), will keep to lower it, no ammonia for two days but sure the cycle is far from being mature. Yesterday I put a couple of dry hot water treated magnolia leaves and a pine cone and will see what happen in terms of ammonia. I'm planning to gradually replace rocks with oak wood, leaves and cones.

What would be your recommendations to safely convert the tank into a blackwater one without harming the fish?
Also do you treat/soak your wood, leaves and pines collected outside with hot water?

Thank you

 

[MacZ]

What would be your recommendations to safely convert the tank into a blackwater one without harming the fish?

Add a lot of botanicals before the first fish and use emerse and floating plants.

Also do you treat/soak your wood, leaves and pines collected outside with hot water?

At best to get dust off the stuff and make botanicals sink immediately. Wood needs to be soaked for a while to sink immediately, if possible in RO.

And that's basically it.

 

[shamedonor]

Add a lot of botanicals before the first fish and use emerse and floating plants.


At best to get dust off the stuff and make botanicals sink immediately. Wood needs to be soaked for a while to sink immediately, if possible in RO.

And that's basically it.

Unfortunatelly it is nearly impossible to remove the fish unless for few days in a 5gal uncycled quarantine tank. Also if I do that, how do I transfer my fish from a no tannin regular pH water to the low pH tannin rich one? Isnt it dangerous to put a dirty wood collected near a road into the tank in terms of harmful bacteria and chemicals? How long does it take the botanicals to sink and the aquarium to get safe for fish as it must be run an ammonia spike?

Thank you!

 

[MacZ]

Unfortunatelly it is nearly impossible to remove the fish unless for few days in a 5gal uncycled quarantine tank.

Your post seemed to imply the tank is still fishless! That makes things almost impossible...

Also if I do that, how do I transfer my fish from a no tannin regular pH water to the low pH tannin rich one?

Humic substances do not lower pH that much. The conductivity is the main problem. Drip acclimation would be the method of choice.

Isnt it dangerous to put a dirty wood collected near a road into the tank in terms of harmful bacteria and chemicals?

1. You DO NOT collect wood, leaves and other botanicals near settlements. Especially not close to roads. Also stay away from intensive farming areas. Go into the woods. If it's your own backyard and you and your neighbours don't use herbicides and pesticides it's also okay-ish.
2. What harmful bacteria? 90% of bacterial infections in fish are opportunistic bacteria tht are present everywhere, there's nothing you can do against those. Fish oathogens on the other hand do not occur on land. And chemicals... as I said, stay away from polluted areas.

How long does it take the botanicals to sink and the aquarium to get safe for fish as it must be run an ammonia spike?

If you pour boiling water over the botanicals and let them steep they will sink immediately after they cooled down. There is usually no problem with ammonia as in lower pH ammonia is present as ammonium which is not toxic. To remove toxic nitrogen compounds you use the plants I mentioned like Monstera or Epipremnum, or floating plants.

 

[shamedonor]

Your post seemed to imply the tank is still fishless! That makes things almost impossible...


Humic substances do not lower pH that much. The conductivity is the main problem. Drip acclimation would be the method of choice.


1. You DO NOT collect wood, leaves and other botanicals near settlements. Especially not close to roads. Also stay away from intensive farming areas. Go into the woods. If it's your own backyard and you and your neighbours don't use herbicides and pesticides it's also okay-ish.
2. What harmful bacteria? 90% of bacterial infections in fish are opportunistic bacteria tht are present everywhere, there's nothing you can do against those. Fish oathogens on the other hand do not occur on land. And chemicals... as I said, stay away from polluted areas.


If you pour boiling water over the botanicals and let them steep they will sink immediately after they cooled down. There is usually no problem with ammonia as in lower pH ammonia is present as ammonium which is not toxic. To remove toxic nitrogen compounds you use the plants I mentioned like Monstera or Epipremnum, or floating plants.

Thanks! I will go to a big reserve we have near the town or just to a forest.
But why do you say the fish presence is making this nearly impossible? If I put wood and leaves gradually and not in a big batch, that should be okay? Or am I wrong somewhere? Also I could add a sack of peat moss. The conductivity normally will gradually lower with water change with RO water. For now it is around 110ms, my pure RO has something like 10, and tap is around 200+ by memory

 

[MacZ]

But why do you say the fish presence is making this nearly impossible?

ALl caution is good, but it simply makes this risky business.

If I put wood and leaves gradually and not in a big batch, that should be okay? Or am I wrong somewhere? Also I could add a sack of peat moss.

The biggest problem is oxygen depletion which might come with too many botanicals added at once. So keep doing it with a lot of caution.
Peat or peat moss? What you would want is peat. Not just Sphagnum moss. I don't use peat as it is not sustainably sourced.

The conductivity normally will gradually lower with water change with RO water. For now it is around 110ms, my pure RO has something like 10, and tap is around 200+ by memory

You will end up at around 30-50µS/cm. Which is the average you can manage in a fish tank. I consider it optimal.

 

[shamedonor]

ALl caution is good, but it simply makes this risky business.


The biggest problem is oxygen depletion which might come with too many botanicals added at once. So keep doing it with a lot of caution.
Peat or peat moss? What you would want is peat. Not just Sphagnum moss. I don't use peat as it is not sustainably sourced.


You will end up at around 30-50µS/cm. Which is the average you can manage in a fish tank. I consider it optimal.

I have a HOB + a sponge air filter making bubbles. Will add an air stone as well. I saw people underline this oxygen shortage problem as well, thanks!
Would you consider a tree in residential sector of an average town or in a park as safe enough or you strictly insist on wild forest wood? I found a magnolia and an oak tree few houses away from my house. Sure it is in a street but the traffic is minimal. I will ask the owner if they treated something recently and soak it for a while changing the water few times.

By the peat (turf) I mean the one we usually put in our tanks, like fluval or eheim one.

When I said "bacteria" in my original post (not those pathogen in the botanical materials), I meant the ones that usually consume ammonia. As I said, I read those are different strains in a low ph aquarium. So trying to model the process: i run a tap (the fish were kept in the tap water for a long period before I got it)->RO+tap->purely RO water. So the nitrogen cycle bacteria that appear are usually for a regular ph tank. Then the water and pH changes and the pH is no longer suitable for them. Somewhere in the middle of the water properties change a new low pH water strain must appear and gradually replace the regular ones. Maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[MacZ]

Would you consider a tree in residential sector of an average town or in a park as safe enough or you strictly insist on wild forest wood? I found a magnolia and an oak tree few houses away from my house. Sure it is in a street but the traffic is minimal. I will ask the owner if they treated something recently and soak it for a while changing the water few times.

Hmm... I don't know where you live. There are countries or regions of countries (including my own, Germany), where I would stay clear of anything from a residential area including public parks. I wouldn't make a fuzz by asking people, I'd just leave it an make a short trip to the nearby forest. It's also the right time to collect fallen leaves (oak, beech, etc.)

By the peat (turf) I mean the one we usually put in our tanks, like fluval or eheim one.

Allright, in that case: I'd rather leave it unless you've already bought it. The way peat is collected commercially is a disaster for the environment. But if you have to or are set on using peat: Get a whole sack (10kg or so, NO fertilizers) from a garden center. Better bang for the buck than the stuf from aquarium hobby brands.

When I said "bacteria" in my original post (not those pathogen in the botanical materials), I meant the ones that usually consume ammonia. As I said, I read those are different strains in a low ph aquarium. So trying to model the process: i run a tap (the fish were kept in the tap water for a long period before I got it)->RO+tap->purely RO water. So the nitrogen cycle bacteria that appear are usually for a regular ph tank. Then the water and pH changes and the pH is no longer suitable for them. Somewhere in the middle of the water properties change a new low pH water strain must appear and gradually replace the regular ones. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I see. Yes, in low pH/EC the species and genera of bacteria doing the nitrogen cycle are different from those you can BUY in a bottle, but there will be the right ones settling in anyway, because they are literally everywhere in small amounts, an aquarium is often seeded just from trace amounts in the air. In your running filter media there are likely already small pockets of species that will do well in low EC, so just let the stuff go through the transformation.
It's also not like you pass a certain pH and zapp! all the bacteria of the one strain drop dead, while others make a drastic rise to power. It's a transformation of sorts and it fluctuates all the time.
So in my opinion you're overthinking this.

 

[shamedonor]

The different strains of bacteria that are unavailable commercially or from another source (but sure present everywhere as those we use in normal pH tanks) means that there is no way to accelerate the establishment of low ph nitrogen cycle. So given the fish are already in, my way to quickly establish a regular ph cycle with some filter bacteria from my other tank, and then gradually lower pH to allow low ph strain bacteria to establish colonies seems not that bad. But it must be done carefully to avoid oxygen shortage.

 

[MacZ]

Also the plants are a great help.

 

[Mike Wise]

If the only fish in the tank are the panduro pair, then do what we did decades ago: feed lightly, do 10-20% water changes 2 - 3 times each week (no gravel cleaning needed) ... and keep a close eye on the fish's behavior. If they begin to look stressed do another water change. Beneficial bacteria will appear out of the air to seed the tank.

 

[anewbie]

You can test for ammonia and if it gets around 0.25 or 0.5 add a few drops of prime to help neutralize. This shouldn't hurt the cycling. Also if the aquarium is sufficiently acidic that should also help neutralize the negative impact of ammonia (not sure about nitrite).

 

[shamedonor]

If the only fish in the tank are the panduro pair, then do what we did decades ago: feed lightly, do 10-20% water changes 2 - 3 times each week (no gravel cleaning needed) ... and keep a close eye on the fish's behavior. If they begin to look stressed do another water change. Beneficial bacteria will appear out of the air to seed the tank.

You can test for ammonia and if it gets around 0.25 or 0.5 add a few drops of prime to help neutralize. This shouldn't hurt the cycling. Also if the aquarium is sufficiently acidic that should also help neutralize the negative impact of ammonia (not sure about nitrite).

yes, those are the only fish in the tank (one bigger female jumped out, I think too much stress, she was running up and down after I moved them into this new tank from quarantine one, those are my first apistos and I underestimated their ability to jump and did not cover the tank on time). Now the fish look relatively good, they eat today, showed some colors. I added some small oak branches and a couple of leaves, and poured some water where I soaked all that in. Will keep an eye on them closely

 

[shamedonor]

You can test for ammonia and if it gets around 0.25 or 0.5 add a few drops of prime to help neutralize. This shouldn't hurt the cycling. Also if the aquarium is sufficiently acidic that should also help neutralize the negative impact of ammonia (not sure about nitrite).

From what I read the nitrite is more harmful in a low ph environment

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

... Would you consider a tree in residential sector of an average town or in a park as safe enough or you strictly insist on wild forest wood? I found a magnolia and an oak tree few houses away from my house.

They should be fine.

By the peat (turf) I mean the one we usually put in our tanks, like fluval or eheim one.

When I said "bacteria" in my original post (not those pathogen in the botanical materials), I meant the ones that usually consume ammonia. As I said, I read those are different strains in a low ph aquarium.

There are, if you go to UKAPS, we've spoken with some of the scientists working on nitrification in aquariums, research linked in to <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-on-off-during-cycling.77983/post-784913">

So trying to model the process: i run a tap (the fish were kept in the tap water for a long period before I got it)->RO+tap->purely RO water. So the nitrogen cycle bacteria that appear are usually for a regular ph tank. Then the water and pH changes and the pH is no longer suitable for them. Somewhere in the middle of the water properties change a new low pH water strain must appear and gradually replace the regular ones. Maybe I'm wrong though.

If you have "grown in plants" and filter material from another tank? You should find that this is quite a easy process, have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...nces-university-of-wisconsin—milwaukee.71023/">.

My guess would be that it is actually only in the traditional "high ammonia / high carbonate hardness" cycling scenario that you don't have a suitable microbial inoculum.

Usually, in semi-natural situations, low nutrient situations sustain maximal biodiversity, and I don't see why it should be any different with nitrifying microbes.

There is some scientific evidence for this:
<"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...-beneficial-bacteria.64144/page-2#post-634517">.

Cheers Darrel

 

[shamedonor]

Hi all,

They should be fine.

There are, if you go to UKAPS, we've spoken with some of the scientists working on nitrification in aquariums, research linked in to <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-on-off-during-cycling.77983/post-784913">

If you have "grown in plants" and filter material from another tank? You should find that this is quite a easy process, have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/correspondence-with-dr-ryan-newton-school-of-freshwater-sciences-university-of-wisconsin—milwaukee.71023/">.

My guess would be that it is actually only in the traditional "high ammonia / high carbonate hardness" cycling scenario that you don't have a suitable microbial inoculum.

Usually, in semi-natural situations, low nutrient situations sustain maximal biodiversity, and I don't see why it should be any different with nitrifying microbes.

There is some scientific evidence for this:
<"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...-beneficial-bacteria.64144/page-2#post-634517">.

Cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel,

for now the tank has 0 ammonia for at least 4 days and I remove the old sponges I took from another running filter to get the cycle running one by one every day. I also put some cones and branches, some of them are already covered with white bacterial colonies which I know is normal. I added some peat (turf) letting it flow on the water surface in a sack under the filter. The ph is still the same as my tap/vented RO one. Here I expected some pH reducing as I had see that when I used it in a canister filter of another tap water tank. The only difference this one is fluval and before I used eheim one. Anyway will keep observing and to do 20-30% RO water changing to lower the hardness and other parameters to allow botanics and turf to do its job.
The fish seems to be ok, showing some more colors and no more signs of stress I saw when I moved them into this tank. The only regret is I haven't the tank covered on time which allowed one female to jump out.