sp. Pebas, sp. Papagei, sp. Putumayo

[fideltagamma]

Hi everyone, can anyone give me a description and the distinctionof the above fellas?

Thanks

Daniel

 

[Neil]

fideltagamma,
This is a tough question. Rolo kind of answered this in the Algodon thread here:
http://forum.apistogramma.com/viewtopic.php?t=1472

Putumayo is a cruzi complex fish that have abdominal stripes that differ slightly from cruzi. Without looking up pics, I can't remember alot more about this species. But when I first got Algodon 1 (papagei) and Algodon II (putumayo) in from Julio Melgar several years ago, there was a significant difference in color as well.

Now A. sp. "Papagei" is distinguished by its red bordering around the scales above the lateral line (on good specimens). It can have a yellow, orange to deep red caudal fin. It also has a remarkable pattern of lines of varying color on the dorsal that differs from Putumayo, but is similar to A. sp. "Morado". In fact, it is a pebas complex fish and can be quite similar to A. sp. "Morado", which some will say is a color variant of A. sp. "Pebas" (which I will hold my opinion on that).

A. sp. Pebas usually has brown bordering around light colored scale above the lateral line. I have seen attractive specimens (which are forms or different fish?), but typically it is not nearly as colorful as papagei or even putumayo. Some say that it is related to A. sp. "Rotpunct" or macmasteri, differing among other things, by the breeding color of the females.

They all three are from somewhere around the town of Pebas, probably in the Ampiyacu river, but I am not sure of this.

All this might not help much, but I just don't know a ton about these species and do not currently have any of them to give a blow by blow characteristics breakdown.

Maybe Rolo or someone else could come up with something more.

Neil

 

[fideltagamma]

Hi!

The problem is that my fish isn't in very good condition and doesn't really show colour the fins are torn a bit and so I cannot really id it. At the moment I cannot take any picture either as my wife took the camera on excursion.

My fish shows a very narrow lateral line close to the head, which is getting wider to the caudal fin. I think it has two caudal spots, but it's very pale and I cannot be sure. It has 3 sublateral lines, its first dorsal fin rays are black but not elongated. It has a coloured face mainly red and blue. Some colour started developing on the dorsal fins and on the caudal fins, kind of yellowish. The lateral line sometimes changes into 3-5 square shaped lateral spots.

That' all I can think of at the moment, and I would really like to id the fish.

Thanks

Daniel

 

[fideltagamma]

Hi,

so this would be the fish I would like to identify and sex:
http://mappa.prim.hu/view.prm?uid=2...591&xid=7f23ce0d&filename=pebas02.jpg
http://mappa.prim.hu/view.prm?uid=2...591&xid=30e0dacd&filename=pebas01.jpg

Daniel

 

[apistodave]

Hey Neil! Where does Sp Nanay fit into all this???

 

[Neil]

Dave,
As far as I know A. sp. "Nanay"(or A. sp. "Melgar") is another cruzi-like fish that is very similar or identical to A. sp. "Orangestreifen". It probably is most similar to Putumayo, whereas A, sp. "Papagei" is most similar to (specific color forms of) A. sp. "Pebas". Again though, I am not entirely sure that A. sp. "Morado" (closest to "Papagei") is simple a cf of "Pebas". What have you heard about these species? I know that there has been debate about the whole A. sp. "Nanay" being Uwe's name for what many call A. sp. "Papagei", but I really can only go by what I hear and read, as I have no scientific base to go on. I do know that the fish that I got from Julio in the late 90s and early 2000s that he called A. sp. "Nanay" were definitely different fish from the one that I received from him called "A. sp. "Algodon 1" (now A. sp. "Papagei"). Mike Wise has, for sometime, said that ihe does not like the name Algodon 1 because of collection location irregularities and that, because of these inconsistancies in collection locations, A. sp. "Nanay" is found nowhere near "Papageis" habitat.

All of this junk is very confusing. There are numerous people that I respect a great deal and usually place a good deal of trust in what they say, but when they differ greatly in there opinions, I don't really know who to go with. Romer say this, Koslowski says that, Wise ties things from both into his evaluation and Kullander says that it doesn't matter because they didn't publish it in a scientific journal! Geez!

Neil

 

[apistodave]

I'm confused about these too Neil. But of course with me -whatever Uwe says is what I go by.

 

[fideltagamma]

Well I try to revive this thread.

I took some new pictures. It might help the ID.

here they are: http://mappa.prim.hu/fideltagamma?f=1179319591

I think it might be Pebas or Papagei but I would vote on Pebas as it is not so colourful as the pictures I saw of Papagei.

Thanks for the help.

Dániel

 

[Mike Wise]

I tried to send this reply twice before, but it didn't seem to go through, so I will try again. If this appears 2 or 3 times, please forgive me.

I am not suprised that you are having problems with identifying these species. They are all very similar & closely related. Let me try to explain the differences.

A. sp. Putumayo is a member of the cruzi-complex. It appears to be the fish that Kullander listed as syntypes for A. cruzi. They are, however, sufficiently different from the holotype of A. cruzi (from the Rio Napo) that it probably is a separate species in its own right. A. sp. Putumayo can be distinguished from the other two forms by having more prominently visible abdominals stripes & a vertically rectangular shaped caudal spot that is split in half horizontally through the middle by a pale stripe. There are at least two color forms. The population from the Rio Algodon (Rio Putumayo system) are less colorful (see L&S English edition where they are incorretly identified as "Parallel-stripes Apistogramma"). The population from the Rio Ampiyacu, often sold as A. sp. Algodon 2, are much more colorful, having red markings appear along the lateral band & the abdominal stripes turning red when displaying. Despite the color differences, the black markings are identical on both populations.

The other two forms comprise the Pebas-complex. Although very similar in appearence to A. sp. Putumayo, they can be distinguished by having less distinct abdominal stripes & a 'double patch' on their caudal peduncle. This caudal patch is made from the caudal spot & along the lateral band a darkened part of the last vertical bar (Bar 7). Females typically have only 2-4 spots along the lateral band when in brood dress. All of the cruzi-complex females have 5 or more flank spots.

A. sp. Pebas can be separated from its A. sp. Papageien/Parrot by having a teardrop shaped caudal patch composed of an taller caudal spot and a narrow dark central part of Bar 7. The wide end of the 'teardrop' points to the tail and the narrow end points to the head. Most color forms of A. sp. Pebas show some pale irregular spotting at least in the middle part of the tail. Several color morphs of the Pebas Apisto have been sold & come in under many names (A. sp. Ampiyacu, Dolly, Morado/Purple, & Noronha).

A. sp. Papageien/Parrot is very similar to the Pebas Apisto, but can be separated by the shape of the caudal patch and lack of markings on the tail. The caudal patch on the Parrot Apisto is formed by a larger caudal spot that almost merges with a prominent Bar 7. Between Bar 7 and the caudal spot, there is only a very narrow dark horizontal stripe that joins them together, forming a patch that looks like the letter "H". A. sp. Papageien differs in its tail pattern, too. It never shows any markings in its tail, only a yellow center surrounded by red. The Parrot Apisto has come into the hobby under a number of names, too (A. sp. Algodon 1, Galaxy, Galaxis, and Nanay (NOT the same as A sp. Nanay/Melgar). A. sp. Algodon 1 is a bad name because this fish does not come from the Rio Algodon, but from the Ampiyacu.

The photos of your fish show an "H"-like caudal patch and no discernable markings on the tail. Thus the dark markings indicate that the fish is A. sp. Parrot/Papageien. The Parrot Apisto usually has more red streaks on the face, too, just like in your photos. Thus I would say that you have A. sp. Parrot/Papageien, but they are not the colorful forms we typically see. Koslowski's book has a photo of a less colorful Parrot Apisto similar to yours. The pictured fish & yours might be from the same color population.

As for the original A. sp. Nanay (=A. sp. Melgar from the Rio Nanay), this was examined by me a couple of years ago in the ACA's Buntbarsche Bulletin. A. sp. Nanay is a cruzi-like fish that Melgar sent to Römer in 1998 along with A. sp. Papageien. Uwe incorrectly believed that the two forms were the same species. He then introduced A. sp. Papageien as "A. sp. Nanay" in 1999. I corrected this mistaken ID in the BB article. In a later issue of the BB Uwe acknowledged that Papageien, in truth, was not the same species as Melgar's A. sp. Nanay. But for some reason Römer feels that we should continue using "A. sp. Nanay" for the Parrot Apisto, citing prior naming rights. Well, priority in scientific names is an accepted fact, but what does this have to do with common names? We all know how ofen common names are changed. Besides, Melgar was listing his Nanay fish as "A. sp. Nanay" on his web site in 1998, months before Uwe published his article. Personally I do not understand why anyone would want to continue to use a location name (Rio Nanay) for a fish that comes from the Rio Ampiyacu, almost a thousand miles upstream. This only confuses matters.

Mike Wise

 

[fideltagamma]

Dear Mike,

Thank you for this information. I think this was most useful for all of us, especially for me. I have been trying to have this apisto correctly identified for 2 month now. It came directly from Peru, but not as Papagei. One of my fellow apisto keepers bought the first pair. And I saw some pictures of it as sp. Nanay, well that is how he called it. His pair is a bit more colourful than mine, you can see it here:
http://dwarfcichlids.freeweb.hu/galeria/nanay/nanay.htm

I bought the second male, as it was in a very bad shape, and non of the other fish seemed to be the same colouration. Now I know they are all (10) females. And I seem to have a trio, but the male plays the same dathmatch as Neil described in his article.

So thank you very much.

Dániel

 

[Neil]

Mike,

Thanks so much for that excellent breakdown of these species. Very helpful.

I tried to send this reply twice before, but it didn't seem to go through, so I will try again. If this appears 2 or 3 times, please forgive me.

I am very sorry. Please contact me, if you continue to have problems in this area and we'll see if we can't get to the bottom of it.

Neil

 

[apisto-nut]

MIKE , are you saying that A.sp.Papageien/parrot is A.galaxis ,or can another fish be called this too .
only asking as I'm ordering them and would like to know ,is there a way to tell " easily " or will it take a experienced eye

I do have the DATZ and other books , any help would be good

 

[Mike Wise]

In the past the fish we presently call A. sp. Papagei/Parrot was sold as A. sp. Galaxis, among other names. When buying Papagei sight unseen, realize that at least one population (A92) is much less colorful than than others.

 

[apisto-nut]

thanks I will know by the end of the day " coming later"
as to what they are

 

[morello]

i have a pair of morado and also a pair of fish i bought as A. algodon. i think they are algodon I/papagei/A91 and also think that the pictures you put up are the same fish as mine, ill try and get some shots up for you.

you can see my morado here

http://www.geocities.com/makje69/moradomale.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/makje69/moradofemale.jpg

edit - got a shot of my papagei not the best but here it is

http://www.geocities.com/makje69/papagei.jpg

 

[Mike Wise]

The shape of the caudal spot on your A. sp. Papagei is typical for the species.

 

[Crazygar]

To once again revive this thread. Yesterday, at an Aquarium Society Auction we noticed a pair of what were labelled as "Apistogramma papagolie" (definate Male/Female) in a display aquarium. Being the Apisto nuts we are (We can all agree on this one) We started to seek out the owner of these two fish. We managed to buy the pair for $20.

As we were bringing them home, we realized that we knew very little on this species. While your write up was informative Mike, does anyone have some specs such as;

1) Temp
2) pH
3) Preferred Biotope
4) Cave or Open spawners?

We've figured out that they are actually Apistogramma papagei/Parrot and are currently keeping them in a 40GAL Blackwater Biotope (Tons of Wood, sand and leaf litter, pH of 6.2, water temp around 78). Just ensuring this is the best habitat.

Gary & Erin

 

[Mike Wise]

Other than how you are keeping them now, all I can suggest is dropping the pH a bit. I bred my wild Papagei at pH 5.5.

 

[Crazygar]

Thanks Mike, dropping in some Almond leaves this evening and with the water they were boiled in. Should get better results. Right now, we are feeding them back up to snuff with Bloodworms, Microworms and Frozen Brine Shrimp.

Gary

 

[Apistomaster]

You might want to feed them brine shrimp nauplii daily and black worms if you are not averse to them. I use black worms without any fear of disease. Little objective evidence supports the fears some have about using them. These are both very good conditioning foods in the run up to any breeding attempt. Mikroworms are best reserved as a first food for fry.