South American Biotope (Planning)

[Claire M.]

Update 21.05.2013

Finally the Apistogramma Eremnopyge have arrived along with a couple of Otocinclus Vittatus...
They entered very quietly and immediately started to explore the borrows and leaves as I expected them to do, interacting really nice with each other.

The Nannostomus Marginatus are expected to arrive today at my LFS, and maybe I will bring them by friday if they look ok and the store owner says they are good to go...

I've made a quick video and turned the lights of so they could feel more safe on their first day leaving the room light on as a presence...

This was just a couple of minutes after they entered so more color is expected to show in the coming days =), but I'm really happy the male is astonishing.

Claire M.

 

[davidjp1982]

looks great well done

 

[Claire M.]

Hi there,

Some help needed around here.....

Recently both a RO system from TMC, and the water parameters goes as follow:

From tap:
pH - 7.2
GH - 5oppm = 2.8dHº
KH - 50ppm = 2.8kHº
TDS - 109ppm

From RO:
pH - 7.2
GH - test changes color at 1 drop of reagent (nutrafin test)
KH - test changes color at 1 drop of reagent (nutrafin test)
TDS - 2ppm

I've made a mixture on the tank of about 60% RO 40% Tap Water

and with peat on the filter the values are: (after a week +/-)

pH - 6,8 (it doesn't drops more than this)
GH - 20ppm = 1.12gHº
KH - 20ppm = 1.12kHº
TDS - 57ppm

As I want to drop my pH values to 6 or less without using chemicals in your opinion what's the way to go ?

I've seen folks around here using 100% RO Water with their Apistogrammas is this good to them, I've been reading and generally for most fish the water should have a some minerals and otherwise having mineral free water could cause an osmotic shock and most likely kill them, As I'm planning on having only this pair of Eremnopyge, Nannostomus Marginatus and some Otos ...

Will 100% RO be advisable ?
Would 100% RO with peat (Aquavital Black Peat) on my filter drop my pH to the levels I want? (bellow 6)
I'm also using in the layout Ketapang Leaves and Bark along with Oak Leaves and Alder Cones.

As I want the Eremnopyge to spawn I will have to drop my pH to 6 or less, even if it drops at my weekly TPA of 20-30% of mixed ro and tap the pH raises to 7.2 again what do you suggest ?

I'm happy with the water hardness now only troubled about the pH. Only for keeping them I think there's no problem as long as I have soft water the neutral pH wont be a problem, but this are F0(wild) specimens and for spawning I don't know if there will be any success. And if the current water parameters are the best for them, to fully show their full potential and natural colors...

I was thinking of preparing the water before and do 60% RO 40% Tap as till now, and adding pH- (13,5% sulfuric acid concentration) from Nutrafin to get the water to the pH I want and then always using the same amount on previous prepared water for TPA purpose ...

Really needing some lights here, don't know were to go from here on

Best regards, Claire M.

 

[cichlidmac]

Hi there,

Some help needed around here.....

Recently both a RO system from TMC, and the water parameters goes as follow:

From tap:
pH - 7.2
GH - 5oppm = 2.8dHº
KH - 50ppm = 2.8kHº
TDS - 109ppm

From RO:
pH - 7.2
GH - test changes color at 1 drop of reagent (nutrafin test)
KH - test changes color at 1 drop of reagent (nutrafin test)
TDS - 2ppm

I've made a mixture on the tank of about 60% RO 40% Tap Water

and with peat on the filter the values are: (after a week +/-)

pH - 6,8 (it doesn't drops more than this)
GH - 20ppm = 1.12gHº
KH - 20ppm = 1.12kHº
TDS - 57ppm

As I want to drop my pH values to 6 or less without using chemicals in your opinion what's the way to go ?

I've seen folks around here using 100% RO Water with their Apistogrammas is this good to them, I've been reading and generally for most fish the water should have a some minerals and otherwise having mineral free water could cause an osmotic shock and most likely kill them, As I'm planning on having only this pair of Eremnopyge, Nannostomus Marginatus and some Otos ...

Will 100% RO be advisable ?
Would 100% RO with peat (Aquavital Black Peat) on my filter drop my pH to the levels I want? (bellow 6)
I'm also using in the layout Ketapang Leaves and Bark along with Oak Leaves and Alder Cones.

As I want the Eremnopyge to spawn I will have to drop my pH to 6 or less, even if it drops at my weekly TPA of 20-30% of mixed ro and tap the pH raises to 7.2 again what do you suggest ?

I'm happy with the water hardness now only troubled about the pH. Only for keeping them I think there's no problem as long as I have soft water the neutral pH wont be a problem, but this are F0(wild) specimens and for spawning I don't know if there will be any success. And if the current water parameters are the best for them, to fully show their full potential and natural colors...

I was thinking of preparing the water before and do 60% RO 40% Tap as till now, and adding pH- (13,5% sulfuric acid concentration) from Nutrafin to get the water to the pH I want and then always using the same amount on previous prepared water for TPA purpose ...

Really needing some lights here, don't know were to go from here on

Best regards, Claire M.

You won't get much lower with ro water. Truly pure water would have a ph of 7, generally ro water will hover around 6.6 to 6.8 in my experience. You can add dried leaves or dose co2. I do both, I dose around 30 ppm co2 and my ph stays in the high 5's and low 6's.

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[Claire M.]

Hi Cichlidmac,

As I said I already use Ketapang Leaves and Bark along with Oak Leaves and Alder Cones ...
This only brings my pH to about 6.8 in a week time don't now what to do...

I have Co2 in my planted tanks but aren't planning on using on this, as I use a solenoid valve and there's no sense in using Co2 where it will have no use besides lowering the pH in a fake way as it gases of during the night when the Co2 is turned of resulting in pH fluctuation between 6 or less and during night again to 7.2 this would need a concentration much higher than 30ppm gassing the fish of to dead . I don't really thing this is wise.
I see many people with pH around 5 with certainly no use of Co2 to achieve it ...

Don't get me wrong , but I really don't think this will solve my problems and no benefit as all my plants on this setup will use the Co2 directly from air ...

If it was the only way of achieving it I would really prefer to leave it as it is now, but I'm shore there's more to it than you claim...

Thank you for your reply anyway...

Best regards, Claire M.

 

[Claire M.]

Leave you guys with a photo from the male taken yesterday:

The photo and tea colored water don't make it justice I'm really happy with them really beautiful fish about 4cm long still a young specimen:



Regards, Claire M.

 

[cichlidmac]

Hi Cichlidmac,

As I said I already use Ketapang Leaves and Bark along with Oak Leaves and Alder Cones ...
This only brings my pH to about 6.8 in a week time don't now what to do...

As far as chemical go I know some people use sodium bisulfate. Id your seeing people with a ph of 5 this may be the case. Also be aware that id your Ph drops this low you may kill off your bacteria colonies as they developed at a higher ph.

I have Co2 in my planted tanks but aren't planning on using on this, as I use a solenoid valve and there's no sense in using Co2 where it will have no use besides lowering the pH in a fake way as it gases of during the night when the Co2 is turned of resulting in pH fluctuation between 6 or less and during night again to 7.2 this would need a concentration much higher than 30ppm gassing the fish of to dead . I don't really thing this is wise.
I see many people with pH around 5 with certainly no use of Co2 to achieve it ...

Don't get me wrong , but I really don't think this will solve my problems and no benefit as all my plants on this setup will use the Co2 directly from air ...

If it was the only way of achieving it I would really prefer to leave it as it is now, but I'm shore there's more to it than you claim...

Thank you for your reply anyway...

Best regards, Claire M.

I understand, I use co2 because of plants 30ppm would lower your ph to 5.8. I'm not sure how you will get that low without chemicals.

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[madmike]

Beautiful species. Peat filter the water and keep using catappa leaves I guess? I have about 10 catappa leaves in my 112l tank and the pH dropped from approx. 7 to 6 in just two days, and it's still sinking gradually. My GH and KH is zero from the tap and the pH around 6.9-7.0.

 

[Claire M.]

Hi Madmike,

I use peat in my canister filer and a couple of leaves bark and cones as I stated before, but my pH doesn't go lower than 6.8, I think the hardness is good as it is right now...

I don't now if using 100% ro will make it go lower, and don't know also if this would be good for the fish ...

I would appreciate some advice about this, as i can't find a straight answer ...

Regards, Claire M.

 

[cichlidmac]

I don't think ro will go any lower. The only natural ways are what you are doing, maybe you just need to wait for more decomposition?

I know a lot of apisto keepers use chemicals to lower the ph for breeding like sodium bisulfate. Chemicals are safe if you learn to use them correctly.

If you want to stay natural there isn't much more you can do than add more leaves and more ro water.

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[Claire M.]

Hi again cichlidmac,

Only changing to ro wont make a difference that i pretty much know as the pH is exactly the same as my tap, but if peat is used the zero presence of carbonates will let the ph drop more for sure, I haven't try it yet as I'm not shore if 100% ro is the best way to keep my fish...

This is my concern, wont the fish suffer from absence of minerals ? Wont they be exposed to drastic pH drops and constant fluctuation from water parameters ?

I have a pH- from Nutrafin here , but want to use it as last resort as it is a sulfur acid formula ... And besides that I never used it before, I bought it wen I broth my Ram's and the shop keeper insisted I had to drop my pH to keep them healthy. I never needed to use it and my ram's are doing fine and breeding.

Regards, Claire M.

 

[Jonm]

Hi Claire,
I do not have a answer to your question but here is a link that my provide some more information for your RO concerns.
http://dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php

 

[cichlidmac]

I wouldn't use 100% ro because you are right fish need the minerals. I have been able to get a 6.2 ph with tap water using almond leaves alone so I'm not sure why yours isn't lower. May just need more time.

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[Claire M.]

Hi Jonm and Cichlidmac

Hi Claire,
I do not have a answer to your question but here is a link that my provide some more information for your RO concerns.
http://dwarfcichlid.com/Aquarium_care.php

I had read this tread before and indeed it has good information, thank you for mentioning it ...

I wouldn't use 100% ro because you are right fish need the minerals. I have been able to get a 6.2 ph with tap water using almond leaves alone so I'm not sure why yours isn't lower. May just need more time.

Sent from my Android using Tapatalk 2

I'm sure of it to, the minerals are essentials to the fish, I have talked with Mike Wise, which enlighten me and shared a bit of his methods and knowledge, I think I will be on the right track from here on still much to learn about water chemistry as till now I only had planted tanks and never had this kind of worries, as my tap water has very good parameters for this end ...
I can't rely on time as you said because of regular water changes, if there's something that the planted tanks teaches you is if you don't keep a good water change routine fish and plant's will decay. '' In the wild most of these fish are exposed to a constant flow of clean fresh water'' you can read this on the article that Jonm posted which is a great truth , and in my opinion this is the secret for all kind aquariums and the key for the fish well being ... So giving it more time for the pH to lower can't be the solution as with all water change I will have fluctuation of values... And this is much worse than having a neutral pH...

I thank you all for sharing your experience and opinions ...

Best regards, Claire M.

 

[Claire M.]

 

[cichlidmac]

Hi Jonm and Cichlidmac



I had read this tread before and indeed it has good information, thank you for mentioning it ...



I'm sure of it to, the minerals are essentials to the fish, I have talked with Mike Wise, which enlighten me and shared a bit of his methods and knowledge, I think I will be on the right track from here on still much to learn about water chemistry as till now I only had planted tanks and never had this kind of worries, as my tap water has very good parameters for this end ...
I can't rely on time as you said because of regular water changes, if there's something that the planted tanks teaches you is if you don't keep a good water change routine fish and plant's will decay. '' In the wild most of these fish are exposed to a constant flow of clean fresh water'' you can read this on the article that Jonm posted which is a great truth , and in my opinion this is the secret for all kind aquariums and the key for the fish well being ... So giving it more time for the pH to lower can't be the solution as with all water change I will have fluctuation of values... And this is much worse than having a neutral pH...

I thank you all for sharing your experience and opinions ...

Best regards, Claire M.

I do small weekly water changes to keep the ph low as apistos are often found in small pools of still water full of decaying vegetation. They seem to thrive without daily water changes.

I'm glad you got it figured out, Mike has an amazing wealth of knowledge we all learn much from the wise Mike Wise.

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[dw1305]

Hi all,

Truly pure water would have a ph of 7

This is quite a complex subject, but the problem with "water" (really a dilute solution of various salts and dissolved gases) is that as you get nearer to pure H2O, pH becomes less and less relevant as a reading. You can actually see this with 100% RO, although theoretically it should have a pH value of pH7, it actually has a much lower pH, due to the dissolved 0.002% of the CO2 that has gone into solution as carbonic acid (H2CO3). Because you have no carbonate hardness (dKH) in RO, even this tiny amount of acid will dramatically lower the pH.

This is also the reason why we use 4dKH as a buffer value for planted tanks when we add CO2. The addition of the CO2 drives the carbonic acid ~ carbonate equilibrium to wards CO2, a small proportion of this goes into solution, and we measure this pH change with a pH indicator (bromothymol blue) in a drop checker. Changing the pH in this way doesn't affect the alkalinity, just the CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium

I've never had really soft water because it is all limestone here and even my rain-water has some carbonate buffering, but I don't see any reason why you can't up the proportion of RO, but I would suggest largely ignoring pH, and just using your tap to keep the water in the 30ppm TDS (~55microS) region. I believe that Mark "Microman" Breeze, uses 100% peat filtered RO, and he is one of the UK's most successful Apistogramma breeders.

Have a look at this thread, and links: <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/keeping-low-ph.12720/> & Regani's post in this one: <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/700-liter-amazone.13197/>.

cheers Darrel

 

[Claire M.]

Hi all,
This is quite a complex subject, but the problem with "water" (really a dilute solution of various salts and dissolved gases) is that as you get nearer to pure H2O, pH becomes less and less relevant as a reading. You can actually see this with 100% RO, although theoretically it should have a pH value of pH7, it actually has a much lower pH, due to the dissolved 0.002% of the CO2 that has gone into solution as carbonic acid (H2CO3). Because you have no carbonate hardness (dKH) in RO, even this tiny amount of acid will dramatically lower the pH.

This is also the reason why we use 4dKH as a buffer value for planted tanks when we add CO2. The addition of the CO2 drives the carbonic acid ~ carbonate equilibrium to wards CO2, a small proportion of this goes into solution, and we measure this pH change with a pH indicator (bromothymol blue) in a drop checker. Changing the pH in this way doesn't affect the alkalinity, just the CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium

I've never had really soft water because it is all limestone here and even my rain-water has some carbonate buffering, but I don't see any reason why you can't up the proportion of RO, but I would suggest largely ignoring pH, and just using your tap to keep the water in the 30ppm TDS (~55microS) region. I believe that Mark "Microman" Breeze, uses 100% peat filtered RO, and he is one of the UK's most successful Apistogramma breeders.

Have a look at this thread, and links: <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/keeping-low-ph.12720/> & Regani's post in this one: <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/700-liter-amazone.13197/>.

cheers Darrel

Thank you Darrel,

This threads are long and my English is a bit rusty, I will make a good reading of them

For now I will try to use 100% r\o water filtered trough peat as It seems to be the choice to most successful breeders, I've talked with Mike Wise for this matter and he told me that when we filter the r\o water trough peat it will gain some minerals and will drop the pH, it's a method he uses often on his black water Apistogrammas, I will also use eSHa - Optima which is a combination of trace elements, minerals and vitamins.

From here on will prepare the water 2 or 3 days before weekly water changes using 100% r\o filtered trough peat and this way try to minimize the fluctuation of values ... As it seems in soft water pH is not that important and will have none or few impact on the fish...

I think with this they will have the essential to thrive ...

As I said still much to learn about water chemistry, is good to be here and get advice from experienced people how are willing to share their knowledge ...

Best Regards, Claire M.

 

[Claire M.]

I've taken some new photos of my Eremnopyge, they seem to be flirting with each other which is a good sign i believe





Hope you all like it ...

Claire M.

 

[cichlidmac]

Beautiful.

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