Ram issues

[Cathy G]

Well this morning I turned on my lights and my male ram is hiding under plants, not eating and has lost ALL his color - even his black splotch is gone. He seems to be very nervous, skittish when I approach the tank and darting a bit from one plant to another for cover.

I did a water test, I have a 20g long, nitrates <10, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, ph 6.8 as usual, gh 7, temp is 82 as usual. It is a planted tank, I did my usual water change a couple of days ago - adding r/o. This am I changed another 15%, using straight r/o.

He has always been a rather itchy fish - he had what I think was lymphocystis on one side of his gill plate - that is almost gone now. On the other gill plate there seems to be tiny tiny hole - looks like he was poked with a pin. (No reddness, no swelling - though he has been flashing a bit on the spot for the last couple of days.)

I have not introduced any new fish, but I did add 6 drops of pmdd yesterday for the plants. I have had him about 6 weeks, he is in the tank with his female - she is ready to spawn again, this is about the 4th time now. There are also 3 long finned zebra danios and 2 otos in this tank.

Oh, there is one other thing, his nose is redder - like he is swollen or something - he looks like he has 2 red bumps for nostrils.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd appreciate it! Other than flashing a bit here and there over the last few weeks, he has never appeared sick. He has also not been a timid male - he will go after my hand a bit whenever I am in the tank trimming/planting, etc.

Thanks for whatever help you can offer!
Cathy G

 

[Cathy G]

Yikes!

Those two bumps are now quite red - they are in front of and a little lower than his eyes. They are not directly on his 'snout' like he had run into anything - they look like very inflamed nostrils - I know, fish don't have nostrils. He has been hiding all day and is breathing fast. Help?

 

[fishgeek]

apologies for the delay
and am late for work

just briefly flashing is usually related to water quality or external parasitism
could the white spots you thought were lymphocytosis be ich? nuptial tubercules are another raised lesion seen on operculae
epitheliocytosis is a chlamydial like infection localised to gills that may cause spots in that region

these are all small spots lymphocytosis to my mind cause's larger aggrgates as the spots coalesce


red or inflammed spots
septicaemia, though much more typically on the belly(white area's) of the fish, do we see it
some parasites, after removal usually ie louse
petechiation with loaclised bacterial infection

andrew

 

[Cathy G]

Halloween Ram

This morning he is out and about, he is eating. He still hasn't got much color and his nares/olfactory bulbs look like they are glow-in-the-dark-red. There seems to be a tiny white pimple in each one. Haven't done anything to the tank, just keeping lights down and making sure water is very clean.

I might just try putting in Clout as it is a planted tank - any advice would be welcome! (Clout, in case there is some sort of invisible parasite problems - setting the stage for secondary bacterial infections... there just aren't any other symptoms)

Cathy

 

[fishgeek]

i am not aware of any specifc problem being localsied to the nares

if the reddness is definitely associated with natural body openings i would be most concerned about bacterial conditions

best of luck

andrew

 

[Cathy G]

Still ill

Update wise - I put the fish in QT and treated him with ... geesh something like flouranase... anyway, on the third day of treatment I noticed that the expiration date on the box of meds was 2 years ago. This LFS had just got an entire shipment of new meds - all had expired 2 years ago. The ram hadn't eaten and I figured he wouldn't last at least 4 more days, so I put him back in the main tank with his mate and he began eating and looking better. That was a week or so ago.
2 days ago, he developed popeye. So, he is back in QT and I am treating him with metronidazole. The directions say that if there is no improvement by day 3 I should try something different. If by the end of the day tomorrow (Monday the 20th), his eye has not stopped swelling, I am going to start treatment with Maracyn 2 on the advice of the LFS.
There are just no symptoms of anything else, no external signs of anything and aside from my nitrates getting to 12.5 instead of less than 10, I don't know of a trigger for popeye. Perhaps the infection in the nares spread internally? The metronidazole is in the tank water as he is not eating again.
Feel free to offer advice if you have any!
Cathy G

 

[fishgeek]

is the pop eye unilateral ? or bilateral?

bilateral , maybe staggered, would be more typical of a bacterial infection

unilateral i have some success just treating tpically wit eye drops or ointment conting antibiotics and steroidal antinflammatories


sorry to be of limited use
andrew

 

[Cathy G]

Ram

Thanks for writing, one eye is much bigger than the other, however both eyes seem to be swollen. So, I'll continue with the Met. for awhile and go to Maracyn 2 if there is no improvment.
Cathy G

 

[Cathy G]

Sick Ram cont...

Day 3 on Maracyn 2, the metronadazole didn't seem to help at all. He is a little more out and about, eating worms and frozen brine shrimp, maybe a pellet or 2.
The one eye is still very swollen. The other eye is not. As I look very closely at him, a little red spot has showed up on his side. It looks like a little scab or something - a little bloody red spot, the size of a scale. Does this offer any clues as to what is going on in my poor fish?

I plan on finishing up this round of Maracyn and perhaps adding another round for 5 more days. After that I'll do a water change and run him through a course on PraziPro? How does all this sound?!

Cathy G
Thanks for your help Andrew!

 

[fishgeek]

wouldnt of thought the praziquantel is goin g to help much

unilateral pop eye i tend to treat topically , as i said before

the red nostrils and red spot on the side concern me more
pleasing he has started to eat , maracyn contains erythromycin? is that right
what other antibiotics are available over the counter in america?

i would be most concerned about internal problems and the signs we are seeing make me thing sepsis of some origin is probable
if we can find other choices of ab, orprehaps more suitable methods of administering antibiotics then that is where i would focus

metronidazol is not particularly water soluble and hence passage accross the gills is limited during in water treatment

nitrofurazone seems to ring abell for being available

just checked nitrofurazone is available from aquatrol and also in a combination with other ab's from aquatronics as bettamax, and maracyn II is minocyline not erythromycin!

andrew
some of the drug trade names maybe out of date

 

[Cathy G]

Recommendation?

I should be able to find either the nitrofurazone or the erythromycin. Do you prefer the nitro over the erythro? Also, would you finish the Maracyn 2 course of ab before switching to the new course? The maracyn 2 course will be finished by Saturday am. (2 more days.)
Thanks,
Cathy G

 

[Cathy G]

Nevermind the last

I noticed more red streaking on his body, near his tail. I did a 50% waterchange and began treatment with Nitrofura -G (Aquatronics). It has methylene blue and potassium dichromate, hope this works...
Cathy

 

[fishgeek]

no preference cathy
i was just mistakenly thinking that maracyn II was erythromycin, only after double checking for other meds that i realised it wasn't

i would probably use the meds together , that though would be my choice with my own fish and i ahve no even written literature to suggest that the combinations are safe so it would probably be safest to run them in series

andrew

 

[Cathy G]

Ram...

This is certainly strange - at least in my limited experience! Those red/bloody patches are gone- seemingly healed within 1 day. I have seen two of these spots - they appear and by the next day they are gone. There are also just a couple of tiny white dots/bumps that appear and disappear. I'd swear it is not ich though. Each little dot has red around it - looks like it is causing some irritation to the area, but these come and go and never spread, never multiply.

I really think it is impossible for it to be ich. This is a quarantine tank and the only fish in it was a betta I have had for years now. My sick fish came from the main tank - there is absolutely no sign of ich there and I have not introduced any new fish/plants in months.

He is eating better, is somewhat bloated and he is flashing a bit on one side. Do you suppose there is some internal parasite working it's way out? If so can I run Prazi with the Nitrofura?

Or I'll just continue watching/waiting maybe these few little sores springing up and disappearing mean nothing more than my fish is sick and the Nitro is doing it's job.

Thanks for keeping an eye on this forum and helping me out!
Cathy G

 

[fishgeek]

do the area's look like large white ich nodules then rupture to leave the red spot that only lasts a day or so?

if that is the case maybe microsporeans or digenean trematodes
both of these do as you suggest and erupt up through the skin

microsporeans have no proven treatment options
digenean trematodes should respond to the prazi, again i have no written literature that suggests combined use, cant see why a neuromuscular blocking agent like prazi would have adverse effects on fish when used in combination with antibiotics and i would use both in combination in my fish and mammalian patients

if it is as you suspect , then perhaps all the antibiotics are just stopping us from developing secnondary infection around the primary wounds

andrew

 

[Cathy G]

Ram continued

Hi, the spots are tiny maybe even smaller than salt. They do spring up, vanish within 12 hours or so and now there are no sore/red spots. I really do think you were right about preventing secondary infection.

Some of the spots are now on his head and both eyes are swollen. He is flashing on one side where there is a white parasite now. Every once in a while he shakes/has tremors. He is still out and about more than in the beginning of his treatment and his feces are clear and stringy.

Not eating much - I have tried frozen daphnia, mysis shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, cichlid pellets... he does eat frozen blood worms but I didn't give him any today because he looks bloated.

I am treating with both the Prazi and Nitrofura, I added epsom salts and aquarium salts yesterday.

I'd turn up the heat in case it is ich but if there is a bacterial infection that might make things worse. Is there any chance he will keep getting re-infected during treatment? The tank is bare bottom now and since the antibiotic is added every other day, every other day I vacuum the bottom.

I'll watch/wait and see what happens unless you have anyother ideas! You mentioned microsporeans... no treatment options. Is this fatal? Infectious, etc?

Thanks,
Cathy

 

[fishgeek]

microsporeans depends on other factors they damage tissue and can cause problems , not generally though

the white stringy feaces is because mucous is being produced by an irritated bowel wall- either protozoan or worms are the usual for those
you have used praziquatel? are using? that will cover cestodes(tapeworms) nematodes will need another medication(levamisol/flubendazol-i think discomed may have this in?)
metronidazol is the drug of choice for protozoan species in the gut, i would start this asap

the white spots and flicking certainly sound more like an external parasite

this fish cant have evertything all at once!!

 

[Cathy G]

Clove oil remedy

Hi, thanks for all your help/advice. I put him down this morning. Dropsy set in a couple of days ago.

After the fish was dead, I got a good look and there were lots of red lesions under the layer of scales. I figure he had multiple issues in the end, that the inflamed nares in the beginning were the onset of a bacterial infection that spread internally faster than I could see the external signs of. He probably had the parasites as I never did treated him with anything when I brought him home from the lfs. The main tank is still disease free, so I betcha the sore nares came from an injury and when he became stressed by the injury, infection set in and he wasn't strong enough to deal with the parasite...
Well this is my theory at any rate.

Oh, a course of Prazi is running through the main tank just in case... My remaining female seems totally fine.

Thanks again,
Cathy

 

[fishgeek]

prehaps tb also