question about conditioning water with peat

[skoram]

Although I have an RO/DI filter, there are times when I'd prefer to use tap water that has been softened just a bit (water from my tap comes out at around 107 ppm TDS and pH 7.4) instead of re-mineralizing 0 TDS water.

I have read about peat filtration methods from various sources (and tried it myself a few times) but I have always been slightly uncertain as to what should actually be used. Some sources just refer to "peat" while others refer to ""peat moss" and yet others mention sphagnum peat moss. I know that these all basically come from the same source, but I ask here in case one type may be better or more effective than another. To my understanding, there are basically two "types" of peat.

There is the processed peat (see below) that is dark brown which somewhat resembles soil (and is frequently used in substrate mixes) and is also sold in a compressed pellet form for use as filter media. For this latter reason I believed that this was the type of peat which should be used for conditioning water.

Then there is the unprocessed dried sphagnum peat moss which is, well, just dried sphagnum peat moss:

As mentioned above, my understanding is that the soil-like processed peat should be used but I also know that the dried yellow stuff should also soften and acidify water. If they are both equally effective, I would in fact prefer to use the dried yellow stuff as the resulting water will come out a bit "cleaner" (I have enough rotting leaves and driftwood to provide tannins and humic compounds) but would like to absolutely certain.

 

[skoram]

Please disregard this post. I did some searching and found the answers in other threads here:

http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/sphagnum-moss.12164/
http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/another-peat-filtration-question.11247/

So it seems to me the conclusion is that long fibered peat moss (yellow stuff) is just as effective and in addition lowers conductivity/TDS, but cannot be used for very long.

 

[gerald]

Sphagnum peat (either ground or long-strand) as I understand it works similar to ion-exchange resins, absorbing +2 ions and releasing +1 ions. So it can lower hardness, bit I don't think it can lower conductivity ... regani, darrel am i correct? Peat is effective only if your raw water supply is fairly soft, which yours probably is (just guessing based on your 107 ppm TDS). People whose water comes from limestone aquifers wont get much effect from peat on GH or pH, but it will of course add tannic & humic acids which may be beneficial in their own way.

 

[Karin]

Hi; I tried both, and the effect of the first one (ground peat) was long lasting than the fiber sphagnum moss. Both droped the water parameters perfectly well but IME the sphagnum fibers stoped working before.

cheers all!

 

[skoram]

thank you both for your feedback. I tried filtering with long strand moss yesterday but it barely affected my water parameters. TDS was about 100 and pH was about the same. Maybe 0.2 points lower. My guess is I had my water flowing through the moss too quickly.

 

[Karin]

Probably as at 24hs there is already acidification. Try doing it slower on batch. Conductivity gets a little lower aswell. pH and hardness must lower too.

 

[gerald]

It takes time for the ions to move into the moss cells; it's a gradual physical process, not just a quick chemical reaction.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Sphagnum peat (either ground or long-strand) as I understand it works similar to ion-exchange resins, absorbing +2 ions and releasing +1 ions. So it can lower hardness, bit I don't think it can lower conductivity ... regani, darrel am i correct? Peat is effective only if your raw water supply is fairly soft, which yours probably is (just guessing based on your 107 ppm TDS). People whose water comes from limestone aquifers wont get much effect from peat on GH or pH, but it will of course add tannic & humic acids which may be beneficial in their own way.

I think that is it, I also think you will get slightly lower conductivity as well, which isn't due to the ion exchange effect, but via chelation (that is the other bit in Regani's posts here <"700 liter Amazone.......">).

Some of the chemical details are in this link <"Ecology - Sphagnum....">

......A growing Sphagnum plant is continuously creating sites at which this exchange of ions can take place and the major active substances at those ion exchange sites are uronic acids, which constitute 10-30% of the dry mass in Sphagnum. The uronic acids are held in the cell walls as a polymer, commonly referred to as sphagnan. Sphagnum plants also contain a variety of phenolic compounds. There is evidence that uronic acids are responsible for ion exchange at low pH levels, with the phenolic compounds working at higher pH levels. In Sphagnum plants the concentrations of the phenolic compounds are lower than those of the uronic acids......

cheers Darrel

 

[MickeM]

thank you both for your feedback. I tried filtering with long strand moss yesterday but it barely affected my water parameters. TDS was about 100 and pH was about the same. Maybe 0.2 points lower. My guess is I had my water flowing through the moss too quickly.

Hi skoram + all..
If you choose to use the "peat-type" like in your first pic, and maybe with a little longer fibers .. !!!...
and you choose to use no(or very slow) flow in the tank...., you may end up like this!!!
(Some of these tanks have no sand.., NO tank have "mechanical" filter .., and they are all strictly controlled in terms of feeding..
...using live mosquito larvae/moina/daphnia/artemia every 3rd-4th day..but then feeding to the maximum!!! )

http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/t...basement-with-planted-tanks.17497/#post-94500

These tanks are often started up with 40-50 % of tank volume filled with boiled peat..... "diminishing" as time goes by!!!
The owner of this basement have told me that he once visited one Apisto-man keeping his species in tanks with thick layers of quality-peat with fibers.. the females created small holes/pits in the peat...where they kept their fry!!!

Cheers,
Micke

 

[Karin]

Hi all, Hi Micke!

IME when I've filled the caves with ground peat to create the microenvironment that Mike and Judy depicted I did kind of a mess. Some peat is still there forming like a substrate on the sand mixed with the decomposing leaves of magnolia. That has created sort of a sandy muddy peaty substrate that the apistos seem to love and chew. I suppose this is good for water chemistry too and I could tell that peat seems to be working as a kind of fertilizer (N??) as my plants are better since then.

 

[MickeM]

I totally agree with you Karin!!!
Many plants do much better in peat-substrate...almost no matter what light you have!!
Just be sure to not create any zones in the sediment which becomes anaerobic!!! Then problem may occur...

 

[Karin]

Thanks Micke, I am taking note!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I suppose this is good for water chemistry too and I could tell that peat seems to be working as a kind of fertilizer (N??) as my plants are better since then.

If it is sphagnum peat from a rain fed mire it is pretty devoid of all nutrients. There will be a small amount of organically bound nitrogen, that will become slowly available as the peat oxidises, but probably not enough to provide noticeable plant growth. The same applies to the CO2 produced as the peat oxidises, it will aid plant growth, but only by a small amount.

One effect the peat will have is to <"chelate"> metals, and it may help to retain plant available Fe+++ ions. The same applies to the effects of humic compounds in the substrate. Because it is is a planted tank, the substrate is less likely to become totally anoxic (which like "MickeM" says is undesirable), and what you get are fluctuating boundaries where oxidation and reduction can occur, and this is a good thing.

This is really well described by "the Skeptical Aquarist" in <"Iron transformations"> and <"Substrate">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Karin]

Hi Darrell and all!

Darrell thanks for your accurate and useful info! The reading makes me think out loud. Don’t you mind? In view of these could I say that the chelating activity of the peat would be a factor for plants blooming? My tank has a small coat of laterite under the sand substrate (I do not add iron to my tanks since long ago…well I am mistaken since PMDD which I used to add has iron!). May be peat is making leaking Fe a little more available for plants?
The tank’s water is softer than it used to be (I am using RO/tap water).Water pH is 7 and is very soft now (KH:1-1.5: GH=2-2.5; Conductivity 250).
I am not dosing Fe nor PMDD… but laterite. So may be iron is more bioavailable. Peat aiding on chelation?

Interestingly I occasionally used to have on the java fern leaves a soft white coat. Some form of calcium precipitates. First I thought it was due to low CO2 and biodecalcification. I lowered the filter flow and added a little quantity of Cl2Ca and MgCl2 which seemed to help. May be they helped by redissolving Fe or by replenishing the bicarbonates? Nevertheless water was still soft. I am thinking now that may be that was calcium precipitates together with the iron from PMDD. That is not happening any more, plants used to thrive but they are doing better now… has something to do with the peat chelating properties?

Another option is that maybe I am heavy feeding the fish. Both parents, the fry, the hatchets which are not very happy these days with mom and dad chasing on them and not allowed to eat as peacefully as before… so plants are getting a little more nitrogen? Well just thinking out loud! Thanks for your input.

Hoppe this doesn’t twist the post.
cheers!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

May be peat is making leaking Fe a little more available for plants? The tank’s water is softer than it used to be (I am using RO/tap water).Water pH is 7 and is very soft now (KH:1-1.5: GH=2-2.5; Conductivity 250).
I am not dosing Fe nor PMDD… but laterite. So may be iron is more bioavailable. Peat aiding on chelation?

Quite possibly. The iron in the laterite is ~99% insoluble (that is why tropical laterites form, all the soluble elements have been leached out, leaving insoluble hydrated iron and aluminium oxides), but if you have locally reducing conditions (negative REDOX potentials) ferrous iron (Fe++) may become available in the substrate. Because plants have a very low iron requirement (less than 2ppm), you don't need much to become available if it is the element that is limiting plant growth.

Interestingly I occasionally used to have on the java fern leaves a soft white coat............. I am thinking now that may be that was calcium precipitates together with the iron from PMDD. That is not happening any more, plants used to thrive but they are doing better now… has something to do with the peat chelating properties?

The white coating definitely sounds like precipitation, and could well be iron compounds that are insoluble in alkaline conditions, like iron carbonates, phosphates and hydroxides. The calcium carbonate deposits from photosynthesis (where plants have utilised HCO3-, rather than CO2) are hard and more difficult to remove.

Another option is that maybe I am heavy feeding the fish. Both parents, the fry, the hatchets which are not very happy these days with mom and dad chasing on them and not allowed to eat as peacefully as before… so plants are getting a little more nitrogen?

My suspicion would be that that is the primary reason better plant growth.

cheers Darrel

 

[Karin]

Hi Darrel. Very interesting to read. Helpful to understand. I am glad about how “mysteries” (observations) are getting solved by knowledge!

many thaks as usual,

 

[MickeM]

Hi all, If it is sphagnum peat from a rain fed mire it is pretty devoid of all nutrients. There will be a small amount of organically bound nitrogen, that will become slowly available as the peat oxidises, but probably not enough to provide noticeable plant growth. The same applies to the CO2 produced as the peat oxidises, it will aid plant growth, but only by a small amount.

One effect the peat will have is to <"chelate"> metals, and it may help to retain plant available Fe+++ ions. The same applies to the effects of humic compounds in the substrate. Because it is is a planted tank, the substrate is less likely to become totally anoxic (which like "MickeM" says is undesirable), and what you get are fluctuating boundaries where oxidation and reduction can occur, and this is a good thing.

This is really well described by "the Skeptical Aquarist" in <"Iron transformations"> and <"Substrate">.

cheers Darrel

Many thanks for sharing these links Darrel!!!!!
I think the "chelate"-link helped me in a lot of ways, especially regarding my observations on Apistos(+ other species) kick-starting to spawn after hoovering a small amount of sand/gravel-particles out when changing some water!! (This may also be a key factor in nature, when a rain-period starts!!??)

Cheers,
Micke