Panduro female ate her eggs... why?

[Alphaqup]

I recently acquired a pair of A. Panduros from a local auction and set them in a makeshift 10g bare bottom tank with a bunch of leaf litter and plants. I did not keep a good eye on them for about a week, but five days ago I saw the female gaurding a clutch of ~50 eggs, stuck on one of the almond leaves way in the corner. I figured they mated at some point without me noticing. I decided to leave the male in since he kept his distance to the other end of the tank. This was 5 days ago. Fast forward to day 3 and I noticed most of the eggs have dissapeared from the leaf. At this point, I thought they probably hatched, but I didn't see any fry yet and figured they were not free swimmers yet. Day 4, I see the female courting the male again and see no signs of the fry/eggs whatsoever. Could she have ate the eggs because they were infertile? Should I have removed the male after spawning was completed? Are these fish known egg eaters? What did I do wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[WuddyWoodpeckah]

Hello Nick:

Welcome to the forum.

In my (limited) experience, there can be several reasons for the eggs disappearing.

1. What are your water parameters? Are there any other fish in the tank besides the panduro?

2. Did you see any of the eggs turn whitish/fungused? Usually infertile eggs will grow fungus in about 24-48 hours after being laid.

3. I've had my A.steindachneri female lay eggs that disappear, only for them to show up as fry after almost a week. Is your female still yellow or has she lost color?

The experts will chime in, I'm sure, with other possibilities.

Congratulations on your spawn, usually it is tough to get panduro to pair up without some serious aggression.

HTH.

 

[Mike Wise]

There are many reasons breeding is unsuccessful: inexperience (by both the fish and the hobbyist:biggrin, water conditions, food, stress levels, etc. Personally I wouldn't worry about it. If it hasn't been 7 days since you first saw the eggs, then there is still a chance that the spawn hasn't become freeswimming yet. If this spawning did fail, there will be others. Here are my suggestions:

Water values: try to get the pH around 6 and the water moderately soft.
Food: feed a variety of foods - dry, frozen, and live.
Tank: add a couple of dither fish, like pencilfish, and leave the male in the tank. A. panduro is a nijsseni-group species. These fish tend to form a tighter bond while breeding than most apistos. Males often take an active role in defending the fry and territory together with the female.
Time: be patient. It often takes several spawns for a pair to get everything right.

Good Luck! and welcome to the apisto forum.

 

[Alphaqup]

Hello Nick:

Welcome to the forum.

In my (limited) experience, there can be several reasons for the eggs disappearing.

1. What are your water parameters? Are there any other fish in the tank besides the panduro?

My water should be very soft since I used 75% RO 25% tap and 4 Indian almond leaves in a 10g. I didn't measure it yet, but I'll test it today.

2. Did you see any of the eggs turn whitish/fungused? Usually infertile eggs will grow fungus in about 24-48 hours after being laid.

They were white from the get go. I was hoping to see some clear in them along with some eyes maybe, but they dissappeared.

3. I've had my A.steindachneri female lay eggs that disappear, only for them to show up as fry after almost a week. Is your female still yellow or has she lost color?

The female still has her brooding colors and has been nudging the male more often now then we she was still tending her eggs. She still goes in and out of the dark leaf litter area near the sponge filter (I can't see back there since it's pretty much like a cave). Who knows, maybe she moved the eggs.

The experts will chime in, I'm sure, with other possibilities.

Congratulations on your spawn, usually it is tough to get panduro to pair up without some serious aggression.

HTH.

Thanks for replying.

There are many reasons breeding is unsuccessful: inexperience (by both the fish and the hobbyist:biggrin, water conditions, food, stress levels, etc. Personally I wouldn't worry about it. If it hasn't been 7 days since you first saw the eggs, then there is still a chance that the spawn hasn't become freeswimming yet. If this spawning did fail, there will be others. Here are my suggestions:

Water values: try to get the pH around 6 and the water moderately soft.
Food: feed a variety of foods - dry, frozen, and live.
Tank: add a couple of dither fish, like pencilfish, and leave the male in the tank. A. panduro is a nijsseni-group species. These fish tend to form a tighter bond while breeding than most apistos. Males often take an active role in defending the fry and territory together with the female.
Time: be patient. It often takes several spawns for a pair to get everything right.

Good Luck! and welcome to the apisto forum.

I've bred many fish before, but this is my first crack at any sort of cichlid whatsoever. They are def a more intuitive fish and seems some details may need addressing here as you've already pointed out. I'm here to learn so please do lay it on me. :biggrin: I tried dried foods, but the stuff I have does not sink. They don't even come near the surface of the tank. I've been feeding them solely on live blackworms.

I will put some white clouds in there as dither fish (just learned this term today :biggrin in there today. The male has been in there but seems rather uninterested and rather submissive to the female. He doesn't go near the nest area at all. Is this normal behavior from the male? That's why I was wondering whether or not to take him out next time around.

One other question is: would a female lay eggs without the male fertilizing it? Since I didn't actually witness the spawning, I'm just a tiny bit skeptical that they even mated. Maybe I'm just over thinking it a bit.

 

[nellyfish22]

i think you're overthinking it a bit. It is only rarely that you will catch the fish spawning and most apisto's are excellent parents. Chances are the female has simply moved the fry to a different place. In my experience most of my Apisto females move the fry when they are in the larval stage. Perhaps the courting behaviour you think you are seeing may be the female trying to steer the male away from the fry?As for removing the male, i think it is best just to leave things as they are.:biggrin:

 

[Alphaqup]

i think you're overthinking it a bit. It is only rarely that you will catch the fish spawning and most apisto's are excellent parents. Chances are the female has simply moved the fry to a different place. In my experience most of my Apisto females move the fry when they are in the larval stage. Perhaps the courting behaviour you think you are seeing may be the female trying to steer the male away from the fry?As for removing the male, i think it is best just to leave things as they are.:biggrin:

I'm hoping that's what she did.

I went ahead and tossed in a few White cloud minnows as dither fish. The male chases them around, but not constantly. Now I'm kinda afraid the minnows may eat any potential fry.

 

[bigbird]

i do not think that they should pose a problem......cheers jk

 

[Alphaqup]

I was reading in the Ram thread and someone said that a 'night light' needs to be on so the female doesn't eat the eggs. This could've been why my eggs are gone. My wife turned off the lights on the 3rd day and I didn't know about it till the next morning. It's been 6 days now and no fry anywhere. Hope is gone. Now to see if they'll spawn again.

 

[Mike Wise]

I doubt that you need a night light for A. panduro. Personally, a diet heavy on any worm is not a good one for apistos. I'd add more shrimp for sure. If it's only been 6 days since the pair spawned, then there is still a chance that the fry aren't freeswimming yet. I wouldn't be surprised if the female brings out a brood in a day or two. Then it's time to feed the fry some sort of live food. Baby brine shrimp are the best.

 

[Alphaqup]

I doubt that you need a night light for A. panduro. Personally, a diet heavy on any worm is not a good one for apistos. I'd add more shrimp for sure. If it's only been 6 days since the pair spawned, then there is still a chance that the fry aren't freeswimming yet. I wouldn't be surprised if the female brings out a brood in a day or two. Then it's time to feed the fry some sort of live food. Baby brine shrimp are the best.

Shrimp as in Ghost shrimp or Red cherry shrimps (live)? Or do you mean shrimp pellets? I have to try some sinking pellets, since they don't touch anything on the surface.

I'll wait a few more days till I do a water change to try to get them to breed again.

 

[nellyfish22]

Shrimp as in Ghost shrimp or Red cherry shrimps (live)? Or do you mean shrimp pellets? I have to try some sinking pellets, since they don't touch anything on the surface.

I'll wait a few more days till I do a water change to try to get them to breed again.

By shrimp Mike means brine shrimp, not large live ones:biggrin:. As it is so often said feeding worms can introduce pathogens. As for dried staple foods like pellets or flakes it depends on what your fish will eat. Mine, generally, turn their noses up at dried foods in favour of a mixture of frozen food and live brine shrimp or micro/white worms which i culture in house. When the fry are freeswimming they need to be fed either frozen baby brine shrimp or live brine shrimp.Hope this helps you.

 

[Alphaqup]

By shrimp Mike means brine shrimp, not large live ones:biggrin:. As it is so often said feeding worms can introduce pathogens. As for dried staple foods like pellets or flakes it depends on what your fish will eat. Mine, generally, turn their noses up at dried foods in favour of a mixture of frozen food and live brine shrimp or micro/white worms which i culture in house. When the fry are freeswimming they need to be fed either frozen baby brine shrimp or live brine shrimp.Hope this helps you.

Thanks for clarifying. As far as worms go, I live in CA and the lfs I get my worms from carry California Blackworms which are farm raised. I've been using these worms for the last few years feeding all my fish, even chopped up for my fry. I've yet to encounter any fish illnesses or deaths resulting from 'pathogens'.

I've got MW and BBS readily available so that's no biggie if I ever get successful at breeding these guys.

 

[Alphaqup]

They bred again today. This time, the male is helping fend off any dither fish that comes near. Will 70 degrees be ok for the eggs to hatch? or should I bump up the temp a little bit? The female also laid twice as many eggs this time around. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Mike Wise]

At 70ºF/21ºC, I would expect that 95-100% of the offspring will be female. Apisto sex is affected primarily by temperature. It's not to late to change this, however. Bump the temperature up to around 78ºF/26ºC.

 

[Alphaqup]

At 70ºF/21ºC, I would expect that 95-100% of the offspring will be female. Apisto sex is affected primarily by temperature. It's not to late to change this, however. Bump the temperature up to around 78ºF/26ºC.

Good to know. Thanks Mike. Greatly appreciated. I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.

 

[DarylD]

Good to know. Thanks Mike. Greatly appreciated. I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.

Any update? Did you get viable fry this time Alphaqup?

 

[Alphaqup]

Any update? Did you get viable fry this time Alphaqup?

Negative. I'm pretty disappointed. I've sold the pair after the second unsuccessful spawn. Maybe later down the line, I'll give them another go. I just don't have patience for egg eaters