Pair of A.macmasteri in 680 litre planted community?

[Mark.A2]

I'm about to setup a 680 litre, 6x2x2, planted aquarium. I just have the hardscape in at the moment. The plants will be going in next week and the tank will then be up and running with the first fish going in the week after that. If I do add the A.macmasteri pair then it won't be until next year though.

This is how the tank looks right now:

It is going to be very heavily planted with injected CO2. The substrate is aquatic soil mixed with irish moss peat capped with aquarium sand, the rocks are lava rock and the wood is all Mopani wood.

My question for you guys here is - will a pair of Apistogramma macmasteri be fairly peaceful in this tank with my other fish? I know when they breed they are going to chase the other fish off but with the size of the tank and the heavy planting is it likely to turn into anything more than that?

My planned fish stock looks like this:

2 Apistogramma macmasteri (pair)
150 Cardinal Tetra.
6 Honeycomb Bristlenose Plecos.
10 Kuhli Loaches
20 Lemon Tetra.
20 Orange Venezuela Corys
10 Panda Garra
10 Roseline Sharks.
2 Red Whiptail Catfish.
15 Kohaku Berlin Swordtails.

I asked on the UKAPS forum and was advised by some experienced apisto breeders/keepers on there (who are also on these forums) that they think a pair would be okay, taking into account the size of the tank and the heavy planting, limited line of sight, amount of hiding places, etc.

I've also just been told, in no uncertain terms by a rather rude person on another forum, that the Apisto breeders I spoke to on the UKAPs forum are garbage and the A.macmasteri pair will not mix well with the Corys, Panda Garra or Bristlenose Plecos.

Hence I've now come here to double check.

So, will they be okay or not? By okay I just mean not chase the other fish all the way around the tank constantly and cause them loads of stress so that they die. I know they will chase them off when breeding but so long as it is just chasing them off away from their direct area and nothing more than that I don't mind. I just don't want loads of stress and fish dying.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Hi Mark, welcome. I actually belonged to this forum before I joined <"UKAPS">.

I'm about to setup a 680 litre, 6x2x2, planted aquarium. I just have the hardscape in at the moment. The plants will be going in next week and the tank will then be up and running with the first fish going in the week after that. If I do add the A.macmasteri pair then it won't be until next year though.

This is how the tank looks right now:

View attachment 17273

It is going to be very heavily planted with injected CO2. The substrate is aquatic soil mixed with irish moss peat capped with aquarium sand, the rocks are lava rock and the wood is all Mopani wood.

My question for you guys here is - will a pair of Apistogramma macmasteri be fairly peaceful in this tank with my other fish?

2 Apistogramma macmasteri (pair)
150 Cardinal Tetra.
6 Honeycomb Bristlenose Plecos.
10 Kuhli Loaches
20 Lemon Tetra.
20 Orange Venezuela Corys
10 Panda Garra
10 Roseline Sharks.
2 Red Whiptail Catfish.
15 Kohaku Berlin Swordtails.

I still think they will be all right, just because of the floor area of the tank and the amount of cover.

I asked on the UKAPS forum and was advised by some experienced apisto breeders/keepers on there (who are also on these forums) that they think a pair would be okay, taking into account the size of the tank and the heavy planting, limited line of sight, amount of hiding places, etc.

Was that me?

I've also just been told, in no uncertain terms by a rather rude person on another forum, that the Apisto breeders I spoke to on the UKAPs forum are garbage

I'll definitely admit to that, personally, I've always admitted to be a lazy and shoddy fish keeper, who always takes the path of resistance.

and the A.macmasteri pair will not mix well with the Corys, Panda Garra or Bristlenose Plecos.

That is also true, bit I think the tank will be large enough to diffuse issues?

Hence I've now come here to double check.

So, will they be okay or not? By okay I just mean not chase the other fish all the way around the tank constantly and cause them loads of stress so that they die. I know they will chase them off when breeding but so long as it is just chasing them off away from their direct area and nothing more than that I don't mind. I just don't want loads of stress and fish dying.

You are in the right place.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Mark.A2]

Hi all,
Hi Mark, welcome. I actually belonged to this forum before I joined <"UKAPS">.

I still think they will be all right, just because of the floor area of the tank and the amount of cover.

Was that me?

I'll definitely admit to that, personally, I've always admitted to be a lazy and shoddy fish keeper, who always takes the path of resistance.

That is also true, bit I think the tank will be large enough to diffuse issues?

You are in the right place.

Cheers Darrel

Hey Darrel, you were indeed one of them.

Hopefully I can get confirmation from the experts here, one way or the other. I just want to know before I get them rather than after.

 

[anewbie]

That is also true, bit I think the tank will be large enough to diffuse issues?

The fundamental issue is the cory and pleco will go where they want to go and if the mac are trying to breed they will attemp to defend their location. The cory and pleco aren't really going to 'hunt' the eggs or fry but they don't quite get the message leave my territory and so stress will develop which is the primary killer of dwarf cichild. Having said that domestic breed have short life span to begin with so maybe it doesn't matter if they only live a year. Also the fry themselves have very little chance of survival (breeding is almost certainly not your intention) as the cardinals will hunt them down. However while very young once again the parents will attempt to protect them.
-
I have mixed pangio sheffordi and pygmy cory with breeding dwarf cichild without issue primarily because the pygmy cory are much more timid and will avoid angry mother and quite frankly the dwarf cichild can't figure out what the small pangio is doing and since they don't actually go after the eggs it just seems to work.
-
There are dwarf cichild that would work better than a very upset mac but i'm not sure this is a serious aquarium with regards to overall health of hte fishes. Don't know if your water is soft or hard though i tend to associate much of uk as having hard water which is already a downer for the entire stocking; and if the water is soft it would do better without the bn and perhaps a few more cory and a few fewer cardinals - this has to do more with giving the fishes room to spread out. And yes i have had my share of co2 inject aquariums and over populated aquarium and what i have learned is the leaner populations do better if the focus is on the fish longevity and health. In fact the fastest way to kill fishes is to have too many pleco and yes i've learned this the hard way. The problem is pleco are huge waste producers and dirty water stresses the fish which make them more vulnerable to disease and bacteria out break.

The idea that plants 'purifiy' the water is imho a misconception. Yes plant life can contribute to a balance aquarium but it isn't a miracle worker. These aren't pretty aquariums but a couple i've kept over the years:

Both of these aquariums are over stocked despite 50% weekly water chances.

 

[MacZ]

2 Apistogramma macmasteri (pair)
150 Cardinal Tetra.
6 Honeycomb Bristlenose Plecos.
10 Kuhli Loaches
20 Lemon Tetra.
20 Orange Venezuela Corys
10 Panda Garra
10 Roseline Sharks.
2 Red Whiptail Catfish.
15 Kohaku Berlin Swordtails.

I see these problems with the stocking (and no, tank size is not going to help much).

What does not work with dwarf cichlids in my experience to the disadvantage of the cichlids:
- Plecos, because those are at least partial nocturnal and striktly diurnal fish like the cichlids will be basically run over during the night. Not that the plecos would be aggresive, but imagine a car racing through your bedroom every night. Also there is often competition for caves.
- Hoplisoma, Osteogaster etc. (Corydoraoid catfish): WIll ignore territory boundaries, possibly causing a brooding dwarf cichlid female to burn out from constantly chasing away the catfish.
- Same for Garras and loaches.
- The tetras will also pose a problem as fry predators, but
- Tetras and Swordtails are quick eaters. Their numbers might pose the problem for all bottom dwellers. Target feeding catfish, loaches and cichlids might become necessary at one point, because no food might reach the bottom.

As you can see most of these problems stem from the cichlids brooding, so I would propose getting a bachelor group of definitive males. That's the best for display tanks in my opinion and experience. They will only be concerned with each other and ignore all other fish.

Now the other way round loaches are in danger of being actually killed by cichlids if they run inti them while the cichlids are brooding, aggression towards the carfish might also occur, and though those are safe from being killed due to their armour, eyes might be lost.

A general problem I see with the plecos, because Ancistrus breed like rabbits. No matter what colour breed, it is near impossible to get rid of them quite soon and they produce new offspring every 2-3 weeks which can not be handled by fry predators. Additionally males are very territorial and I have seen fights among them end fatal. My advice would be to make sure to either only get females or a single specimen.

Denison barbs should be offered a tank length of at least 2 meters. I have heard the crack of bones when these fish ran into the glass. You don't want this.

Also the loaches... if the tank turns out the way I imagine you will barely see them.

Over all I would say keeping Apistogramma in this tank is not a big challenge, but the stocking is.

I personally would reduce the number of species, while switching up numbers, as the fish soup (sorry, that's what we call such an ecclectic stocking in Germany) you have come up with poses problems on all ends.

This would likely work out:

3-5 MALE Apistogramma (no females at all!)
50-100 Paracheirodon axelrodi
30 Hyphessobrycon pulchripinnis
30 Osteogaster sp.
5-10 Rhineloricaria sp. "red"

I would probably add some midsized peaceful cichlids like Cleithracara.

The numbers of Catfish and tetras can be pushed up.

Hope this helps a bit.

And a little P.S.: Get floating plants or come up with some kind of cover, because none of the fish will do exceptionally well will bright lighting.

 

[Mark.A2]

I see these problems with the stocking (and no, tank size is not going to help much).

What does not work with dwarf cichlids in my experience to the disadvantage of the cichlids:
- Plecos, because those are at least partial nocturnal and striktly diurnal fish like the cichlids will be basically run over during the night. Not that the plecos would be aggresive, but imagine a car racing through your bedroom every night. Also there is often competition for caves.
- Hoplisoma, Osteogaster etc. (Corydoraoid catfish): WIll ignore territory boundaries, possibly causing a brooding dwarf cichlid female to burn out from constantly chasing away the catfish.
- Same for Garras and loaches.
- The tetras will also pose a problem as fry predators, but
- Tetras and Swordtails are quick eaters. Their numbers might pose the problem for all bottom dwellers. Target feeding catfish, loaches and cichlids might become necessary at one point, because no food might reach the bottom.

As you can see most of these problems stem from the cichlids brooding, so I would propose getting a bachelor group of definitive males. That's the best for display tanks in my opinion and experience. They will only be concerned with each other and ignore all other fish.

Now the other way round loaches are in danger of being actually killed by cichlids if they run inti them while the cichlids are brooding, aggression towards the carfish might also occur, and though those are safe from being killed due to their armour, eyes might be lost.

A general problem I see with the plecos, because Ancistrus breed like rabbits. No matter what colour breed, it is near impossible to get rid of them quite soon and they produce new offspring every 2-3 weeks which can not be handled by fry predators. Additionally males are very territorial and I have seen fights among them end fatal. My advice would be to make sure to either only get females or a single specimen.

Denison barbs should be offered a tank length of at least 2 meters. I have heard the crack of bones when these fish ran into the glass. You don't want this.

Also the loaches... if the tank turns out the way I imagine you will barely see them.

Over all I would say keeping Apistogramma in this tank is not a big challenge, but the stocking is.

I personally would reduce the number of species, while switching up numbers, as the fish soup (sorry, that's what we call such an ecclectic stocking in Germany) you have come up with poses problems on all ends.

This would likely work out:

3-5 MALE Apistogramma (no females at all!)
50-100 Paracheirodon axelrodi
30 Hyphessobrycon pulchripinnis
30 Osteogaster sp.
5-10 Rhineloricaria sp. "red"

I would probably add some midsized peaceful cichlids like Cleithracara.

The numbers of Catfish and tetras can be pushed up.

Hope this helps a bit.

And a little P.S.: Get floating plants or come up with some kind of cover, because none of the fish will do exceptionally well will bright lighting.

Thanks MacZ. I am having floating plants plus there will be stem plants trailing onto the surface at the rear right and tall Crypts trailing onto the surface at the rear left.

I know I won't see the Kuhli loaches much. That's part of the attraction for me. You appreciate them all the more when you do see them.

With regards to the Bristlenose Plecos - I've now decided not to get them. Partly for the reasons you point out but also because of the amount of waste they produce. I will be increasing the Corydoras to 24 and the Panda Garra to 20 though.

I do feed often and fairly heavily but I will keep an eye on them to make sure everyone is getting fed.

As for the Apistos - after further discussions elsewhere I've decided not to get them. Probably not going to get a 'pair' of fish at all now. With me having so many active, shoaling fish and bottom dwellers any pair is going to have a hard time.

The tank is 6ft long, just 6 inches under your 2 metre length recommendation for the Roseline sharks. Are you saying that 6 inches more would make a difference? You don't think the tank is big enough for them? Would you have less of them or go with something else?

I want some fish that are a decent size (4-5 inches?), peaceful, colourful, active and okay in fairly high flow at ~75f, pH 6.8 to 7.2, KH ~6, that will work with my other fish, don't eat plants and don't dig. Not asking much, I know!

 

[anewbie]

I would start with maybe 8 panda gara and then decide if you want to add more; and if you ever seen a pair of panda gara fight it is epic and can last 15+ minutes. It isn't that you want them to fight but they fight infrequent but over everything from who gets to sit on the right to who gets to take the first piece of food.

As i mentioned on the other thread i could consider one of the more colourful laetacara; particularly laetacara araguaiae or one of the smaller mesonauta such as egregius - the sizes you find for mesonauta on sites like seriouslyfish are mostly incorrect and some can get 7 or 8 inches. The laetacara will stay in the 3 to 4 inch range though a particularly long lived specimen can get 5 inches. None of these fishes are going to do well in your harder water. You don't list gh which is important here but a google search suggest your water is over 200ppm. In truth there are some wonderful central american fishes but then you would have to rethink your stocking completely.

 

[MacZ]

The tank is 6ft long, just 6 inches under your 2 metre length recommendation for the Roseline sharks. Are you saying that 6 inches more would make a difference? You don't think the tank is big enough for them? Would you have less of them or go with something else?

I overlooked the dimensions as I don't work with imperial units. personally I'd keep them in at least 3 meters and at least 20 specimens. It's your decision though. Otherwise wise decisions across the board.

 

[Apistonaut]

I agree heavily with @MacZ on livestock. I would (personally) do maybe 40-50 Paracheirodon Axelrodi, and then seek further to remove some of the diversity in general. The difference between 50 and 100 is not as dramatic as you think, and they'll be better off. In the wild, there are shoaling population breaks when a domain becomes crowded, especially among soft-water tetra.

Would you rather be mauled by 50 lions or 100? It doesn't really matter, the effect is the same, haha.

I see the vision, I really do! I think reducing your initial plan to about 1/3 of the livestock will remove a lot of resistance in your maintenance and caretaking, reduce a lot of the stress (Hyphessobrycon in general are slightly more territorial than Paracheirodon, and this still applies to Hyphessobrycon Pulchripinnis.)

The Apistogramma pair will struggle to establish calm, consistent territory. They will labor on each other until they find one another unfit. A few males without females is ideal for a display. They tend to cohabitate better without breeding stressors.

More isn't always better! Your water will be far easier to approach as well with a more select group. Since you plan on injecting CO2, I expect you'll be using some schedule of fertilizer. With fertilizer and your planned livestock, you are going to be creating a part time job just managing nitrogen, alone. This cuts time being able to trim, perform water changes, treat illness, modify/garden the vegetation, etc.


My $0.02!