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Nanochromis sabinae
- Thread starter ed seeley
- Start date
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
Rain Man, Your pictures don't seem to work for me!
I did take some, but posted them in the gallery section, they were really quite rubbish though! Going to try again once I've got some work done tonight.
I did take some, but posted them in the gallery section, they were really quite rubbish though! Going to try again once I've got some work done tonight.
- Messages
- 362
- Location
- Canada
The photos didn't work for me either. It may be possible that the album that the photos are in are marked private only.
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
Well my dominant pair have just spawned!!!!!
Looked in the tank tonight and found her sneaking out of the coconut cave! The male's doing his best to chase off the Male Apistogramma eremnopyge but he's a coward. The female soon sees him off though!!!!
Edit: I was wrong, she's in the flowerpot cave facing it! She's piled up the sand at the front so she can barely fit in, the male has no chance!
Looked in the tank tonight and found her sneaking out of the coconut cave! The male's doing his best to chase off the Male Apistogramma eremnopyge but he's a coward. The female soon sees him off though!!!!
Edit: I was wrong, she's in the flowerpot cave facing it! She's piled up the sand at the front so she can barely fit in, the male has no chance!
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
Well guys I could do with a bit of advice from those of you that have bred this species.
The spawn I talked about above came to nothing. Nothing too surprising there IME. The same pair have spawned again last week and this spawn too sems to have been recycled after a couple of days!
I have made a few tweaks to their tank and have given them a choice of two cocnut caves (the female seemed to prefer them and the Java fern on the flowerpot cave was far too big for the front of the tank).
The other major change is that the tank is temporarily home to some rescued fish from a tank at school that sprung a leak! There are three wild angels and 10 Corydoras (6 C.napoensis, 4 C.robinae) that will soon be moved back into the new 3ft at school. I am assuming that there prescence may have disturbed the pair - they don't seem to chase the angels off but are very wary of them. Removing them will leave the trio of Nanochromis, a pair of Ancistrus, 3 SAEs, 8 cardinal tetras, 11 Nannostomus eques and 1 Diamond Tetra. I may then add some baby cardinals to up their shoal size.
The other disturbance is the extra male still in the tank. I have found that this male can be safely left in the tank (40g - 55 USg) and acts as a wonderful distraction whenever the pair fall out, which is after every failed spawning. Then the dominant male chases the other male and female in turn rather than taking all his aggression out on the female and possibly harming her. But is this stopping successful breeding too?
I will re-check the water conditions later today and post them, but they are around pH 5.5, 0dKH, 3dGH, 10mg/l Nitrate and 2mg/l Phosphate. These seem to be about the correct parameters, very soft and acidic. Should I lower the pH further by adding some peat to the filter? I have, in the past, used this to lower pH to below 5 (for some A.nijsenni).
The other bit of info that may be significant is that I now think that I have what was the fish known as 'Genema' in the trade. Linke and Staeck refer to this form being very hard to keep and breed. Can anyone enlighten me as to why?
Thanks in advance!
The spawn I talked about above came to nothing. Nothing too surprising there IME. The same pair have spawned again last week and this spawn too sems to have been recycled after a couple of days!
I have made a few tweaks to their tank and have given them a choice of two cocnut caves (the female seemed to prefer them and the Java fern on the flowerpot cave was far too big for the front of the tank).
The other major change is that the tank is temporarily home to some rescued fish from a tank at school that sprung a leak! There are three wild angels and 10 Corydoras (6 C.napoensis, 4 C.robinae) that will soon be moved back into the new 3ft at school. I am assuming that there prescence may have disturbed the pair - they don't seem to chase the angels off but are very wary of them. Removing them will leave the trio of Nanochromis, a pair of Ancistrus, 3 SAEs, 8 cardinal tetras, 11 Nannostomus eques and 1 Diamond Tetra. I may then add some baby cardinals to up their shoal size.
The other disturbance is the extra male still in the tank. I have found that this male can be safely left in the tank (40g - 55 USg) and acts as a wonderful distraction whenever the pair fall out, which is after every failed spawning. Then the dominant male chases the other male and female in turn rather than taking all his aggression out on the female and possibly harming her. But is this stopping successful breeding too?
I will re-check the water conditions later today and post them, but they are around pH 5.5, 0dKH, 3dGH, 10mg/l Nitrate and 2mg/l Phosphate. These seem to be about the correct parameters, very soft and acidic. Should I lower the pH further by adding some peat to the filter? I have, in the past, used this to lower pH to below 5 (for some A.nijsenni).
The other bit of info that may be significant is that I now think that I have what was the fish known as 'Genema' in the trade. Linke and Staeck refer to this form being very hard to keep and breed. Can anyone enlighten me as to why?
Thanks in advance!
- Messages
- 1,164
- Location
- New Jersey, USA
Hello Ed,
I didn't read this entire thread, but regarding your most recent post, it sounds like there are an awful lot of disparate fish species in your 40-55-gallon tank just now for a successful Nanochromis sabinae spawning. Better luck after your temporary charges are removed. Having some dither/attack objects in the spawning tank, however, is generally a good idea. Also, the holotype of N. sabinae was captured in very soft water with a pH of 4.0. In captivity, however, this species has been spawned successfully in water with pH levels in the 5's and 6's, so lowering your pH further is probably not necessary.
Linke & Staeck notwithstanding, N. sp. "Genema" and N. sabinae are one in the same.
Good luck!
All the best,
Randall Kohn
I didn't read this entire thread, but regarding your most recent post, it sounds like there are an awful lot of disparate fish species in your 40-55-gallon tank just now for a successful Nanochromis sabinae spawning. Better luck after your temporary charges are removed. Having some dither/attack objects in the spawning tank, however, is generally a good idea. Also, the holotype of N. sabinae was captured in very soft water with a pH of 4.0. In captivity, however, this species has been spawned successfully in water with pH levels in the 5's and 6's, so lowering your pH further is probably not necessary.
Linke & Staeck notwithstanding, N. sp. "Genema" and N. sabinae are one in the same.
Good luck!
All the best,
Randall Kohn
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
Thanks Randall,
There's nothing in the rest of the thread I think that would have given more info, I just thought why bother starting a new thread when I'd started this one a while ago!
That was my thought with the fish in the tank, and I'm sorting out the status quo in the tank soon, I just wanted to see if I had missed something else from those people who have bred this species, thanks.
I know the fish called 'Genema' and 'Makoua' are now both included in N.sabinae but as they seem to be relatively distinct colour morphs, shouldn't we be referring to them as N.sabinae 'Genema' or N.sabinae 'Makoua'? Won't they come from very slightly different areas of the Upper Congo system? In which case might they not have slightly differing needs in captivity? I know that in killis different collection codes of what seem to be the same species can be very different to keep and breed in captivity for often unknown reasons.
There's nothing in the rest of the thread I think that would have given more info, I just thought why bother starting a new thread when I'd started this one a while ago!
That was my thought with the fish in the tank, and I'm sorting out the status quo in the tank soon, I just wanted to see if I had missed something else from those people who have bred this species, thanks.
I know the fish called 'Genema' and 'Makoua' are now both included in N.sabinae but as they seem to be relatively distinct colour morphs, shouldn't we be referring to them as N.sabinae 'Genema' or N.sabinae 'Makoua'? Won't they come from very slightly different areas of the Upper Congo system? In which case might they not have slightly differing needs in captivity? I know that in killis different collection codes of what seem to be the same species can be very different to keep and breed in captivity for often unknown reasons.
- Messages
- 1,164
- Location
- New Jersey, USA
Hello Ed,
If it makes you happy, by all means refer to Nanochromis sabinae from Genema as N. sabinae, Genema, and N. sabinae from Makoua as N. sabinae, Makoua. Concerning this species' range, I'll quote myself:
"The distribution of the newly described Nanochromis sabinae, known in the hobby as N. sp. "Genema" and N. sp. "Makoua," extends from northeast Gabon (Ogowe River system), east to central Congo (Brazzaville), and the northern Democratic Republic of the Congo (Congo River system), around Genema and Bamanya."
The coloration patterns that distinguish N. sabinae from the two other members of the N. dimidiatus species-group are exhibited by all specimens, regardless of their collection locality.
If you like, articles of mine concerning N. sabinae were published by "Cichlidae" and "Cichlid News." You might be able to get hold of the "Cichlidae" article through the British Cichlid Association. We also have a species profile here on apistogramma.com.
http://www.apistogramma.com/cms/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=533&Itemid=60
All the best,
Randall Kohn
If it makes you happy, by all means refer to Nanochromis sabinae from Genema as N. sabinae, Genema, and N. sabinae from Makoua as N. sabinae, Makoua. Concerning this species' range, I'll quote myself:
"The distribution of the newly described Nanochromis sabinae, known in the hobby as N. sp. "Genema" and N. sp. "Makoua," extends from northeast Gabon (Ogowe River system), east to central Congo (Brazzaville), and the northern Democratic Republic of the Congo (Congo River system), around Genema and Bamanya."
The coloration patterns that distinguish N. sabinae from the two other members of the N. dimidiatus species-group are exhibited by all specimens, regardless of their collection locality.
If you like, articles of mine concerning N. sabinae were published by "Cichlidae" and "Cichlid News." You might be able to get hold of the "Cichlidae" article through the British Cichlid Association. We also have a species profile here on apistogramma.com.
http://www.apistogramma.com/cms/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=533&Itemid=60
All the best,
Randall Kohn
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
Hi Randall,
You're dead right; I'm being picky really! I have read the species description (well not the entire one). I understand that they both have distinctive colouration that distinguish them from all other Nanochromis, but they are slightly different from each other too.
I should have referred to them as N.sabinae Genema originally, but I hesitated to because I've seen that no one seems to differentiate between them further than species level. Surely a specific description doesn't stop us differentiating beyond that level.
I just think that the slight differences in colour between the two forms currently in captivity will only be preserved if we do differentiate between them and I'd like to know that if I wanted I could go and source N.sabinae 'Makoua' at some point in the future.
Wouldn't we be best referring to them as N.sabina 'Genema', as a killi keeper would refer to Aphyosemion Bivittatum 'Funge' or a horticulturist refer to Geranium macrorrhizum 'Biokovo' (both distinct forms named after their (supposed) collection point), rather than simply separating them by referring to their collection point afterwards with a comma? Would this break nomenclature rules? (I'm slightly rusty on them and better at the Botanical side of things) They are, after all, slightly distinct in their colouration, certainly from the pictures I've seen of 'Makoua'?
You're dead right; I'm being picky really! I have read the species description (well not the entire one). I understand that they both have distinctive colouration that distinguish them from all other Nanochromis, but they are slightly different from each other too.
I should have referred to them as N.sabinae Genema originally, but I hesitated to because I've seen that no one seems to differentiate between them further than species level. Surely a specific description doesn't stop us differentiating beyond that level.
I just think that the slight differences in colour between the two forms currently in captivity will only be preserved if we do differentiate between them and I'd like to know that if I wanted I could go and source N.sabinae 'Makoua' at some point in the future.
Wouldn't we be best referring to them as N.sabina 'Genema', as a killi keeper would refer to Aphyosemion Bivittatum 'Funge' or a horticulturist refer to Geranium macrorrhizum 'Biokovo' (both distinct forms named after their (supposed) collection point), rather than simply separating them by referring to their collection point afterwards with a comma? Would this break nomenclature rules? (I'm slightly rusty on them and better at the Botanical side of things) They are, after all, slightly distinct in their colouration, certainly from the pictures I've seen of 'Makoua'?
- Messages
- 230
- Location
- Los Angeles
What are the dimensions of your tank? The angelfish are the only fish in that tank likely to pick off fry.
I've found this species to be very good parents till the fry are free swimming, at which point they start disappearing at an alarming rate. I'd say mostly eaten by the parents because their tankmates, a few apistos and small danios, have not shown any inclination to eat fry (the apistos raise fry successfully).
I do not consider this species to be all that aggressive as Nanochromis go. Mine have spawned without incident (other than eating the fry) in a 10 gallon as well. My next experiment will be to spawn them without any dithers, relying on the aquascape to provide cover in case of any domestic unhappiness.
If you are in a hurry to raise fry, I suggest siphoning out a small numer of fry as soon as they are free swimming.
I've found this species to be very good parents till the fry are free swimming, at which point they start disappearing at an alarming rate. I'd say mostly eaten by the parents because their tankmates, a few apistos and small danios, have not shown any inclination to eat fry (the apistos raise fry successfully).
I do not consider this species to be all that aggressive as Nanochromis go. Mine have spawned without incident (other than eating the fry) in a 10 gallon as well. My next experiment will be to spawn them without any dithers, relying on the aquascape to provide cover in case of any domestic unhappiness.
If you are in a hurry to raise fry, I suggest siphoning out a small numer of fry as soon as they are free swimming.
- Messages
- 577
- Location
- Nottingham, UK
It's a 36"x18"x18" tank, so it should be 55 US gallons?
They haven't got beyond the egg stage yet, the female has eaten them before they even would have hatched, so I'm not actually thinking there's been predation, just that the large angelfish have spooked the female and caused her to eat them.
I am still finding quite a bit of intraspecific aggression. It's not lead to any physical harm yet, but I feel that if I removed the extra male it may. I may try it over easter when I'm around to seperate them if necessary but the status quo seems to be working.
Whenever the pair aren't actually breeding, or getting ready to, they seperate and show territoriality amongst themselves and don't keep a pair bond like Pelvicachromis.
I'll leave the fry with the parents and hope they get it right!
They haven't got beyond the egg stage yet, the female has eaten them before they even would have hatched, so I'm not actually thinking there's been predation, just that the large angelfish have spooked the female and caused her to eat them.
I am still finding quite a bit of intraspecific aggression. It's not lead to any physical harm yet, but I feel that if I removed the extra male it may. I may try it over easter when I'm around to seperate them if necessary but the status quo seems to be working.
Whenever the pair aren't actually breeding, or getting ready to, they seperate and show territoriality amongst themselves and don't keep a pair bond like Pelvicachromis.
I'll leave the fry with the parents and hope they get it right!
- Messages
- 362
- Location
- Canada
Actually, closer to a 50 USG.
N. sabinae spawning
All,
This is my first posting here, but it seems I'm not finding the information I need about the Nanochromis in my care. I have two pairs of N. sabinae in a 125 gal. tank with 20 or so Procatopus nototaneia "Kribi" and a few Platypanchax modestus. The temp is 74F, hardness is nearly unmeasurable, pH about 6. the tank has many chunks of driftwood strewn about and a layer of filimentous algea growing over everything: Gravel, plants, and driftwood, which I harvest regularly from the tank. There is a layer of watersprite at the surface and the Fluval keeps the Procatopus happy with a strong steady current to swim against. I have two three foot compact flo. lights on 10 hours per day. The female of the "alpha pair" started getting fat and rosy pink/purple in the belly over the last two weeks on a diet of Grindal worms, black worms, frozen daphnia, frozen blood worms, frozen mysis shrimp, Seachem's new Fish Eggs and Fly larvae, and the occasional flake. Four nights ago, I noticed the male standing guard and the female a "no-show". The male shows a strong pattern of rectangular blotches along the flanks when in "guard-mode"-very striking. My questions are these:
1) How long before hatching? I am at day 4, how long before they get to wriggler stage?
2) Should I try to remove them when they reach free swimming? I am thinking the dithers in there will start picking off the babies if I do not intervene?
Cheers,
Brian in Sunny (Finally) PDX
All,
This is my first posting here, but it seems I'm not finding the information I need about the Nanochromis in my care. I have two pairs of N. sabinae in a 125 gal. tank with 20 or so Procatopus nototaneia "Kribi" and a few Platypanchax modestus. The temp is 74F, hardness is nearly unmeasurable, pH about 6. the tank has many chunks of driftwood strewn about and a layer of filimentous algea growing over everything: Gravel, plants, and driftwood, which I harvest regularly from the tank. There is a layer of watersprite at the surface and the Fluval keeps the Procatopus happy with a strong steady current to swim against. I have two three foot compact flo. lights on 10 hours per day. The female of the "alpha pair" started getting fat and rosy pink/purple in the belly over the last two weeks on a diet of Grindal worms, black worms, frozen daphnia, frozen blood worms, frozen mysis shrimp, Seachem's new Fish Eggs and Fly larvae, and the occasional flake. Four nights ago, I noticed the male standing guard and the female a "no-show". The male shows a strong pattern of rectangular blotches along the flanks when in "guard-mode"-very striking. My questions are these:
1) How long before hatching? I am at day 4, how long before they get to wriggler stage?
2) Should I try to remove them when they reach free swimming? I am thinking the dithers in there will start picking off the babies if I do not intervene?
Cheers,
Brian in Sunny (Finally) PDX
- Messages
- 89
- Location
- Paris, France
Hi!
You will find many answer elements in this thread : http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=7103
FYI Nanochromis sabinae is now Congochromis sabinae
Regarding the fact of removing the fry, I think you should let them with the parents : first of all it's a great show to watch them guide the fry, and this is their first spawning, so you should let the parents a chance to prove their skills . Secondly, despite the fact that my pair turned out not to be very efficient in gathering the fry at all times, none of them got eaten by the tankmates. Furthermore your dithers are species which tend to remain close to the surface.
Keep us posted!
Jérôme
You will find many answer elements in this thread : http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=7103
FYI Nanochromis sabinae is now Congochromis sabinae
Regarding the fact of removing the fry, I think you should let them with the parents : first of all it's a great show to watch them guide the fry, and this is their first spawning, so you should let the parents a chance to prove their skills
. Secondly, despite the fact that my pair turned out not to be very efficient in gathering the fry at all times, none of them got eaten by the tankmates. Furthermore your dithers are species which tend to remain close to the surface.Keep us posted!
Jérôme
- Messages
- 35
- Location
- Cincinnati OH
I have a question.
When the female lays her eggs, does she spend an inordinate amount of time in the cave?
Of course, my female decided that none of the proper caves that I have provided for her are good enough. Instead, she has decided to take up residence undeneath a ceramic cave. She has been spending about 85% of her time in the "cave" since I performed a 50% water change on Sunday(there has been a huge low pressure front in the area as well). The male stays outside of the cave, guarding the female. I'm assuming there are eggs in there, but do not want to lift the ceramic cave, and risk smashing any eggs after returning it.
I'll try to take pictures of the pair, so I can share with everyone.
When the female lays her eggs, does she spend an inordinate amount of time in the cave?
Of course, my female decided that none of the proper caves that I have provided for her are good enough. Instead, she has decided to take up residence undeneath a ceramic cave. She has been spending about 85% of her time in the "cave" since I performed a 50% water change on Sunday(there has been a huge low pressure front in the area as well). The male stays outside of the cave, guarding the female. I'm assuming there are eggs in there, but do not want to lift the ceramic cave, and risk smashing any eggs after returning it.
I'll try to take pictures of the pair, so I can share with everyone.
- Messages
- 89
- Location
- Paris, France
That sounds like good news! . Indeed, after spawning, my female uses to spend almost all the time in her cave (more than Pelvicachromis females for instance), even locking herself in by putting some sand & gravel at the entrance, leaving only room to let part of her head out. Until the fry come out, the male would stay close to the cave but never in (not enough room & not allowed to).
Hope the eggs will hatch!
Keep us posted!
. Indeed, after spawning, my female uses to spend almost all the time in her cave (more than Pelvicachromis females for instance), even locking herself in by putting some sand & gravel at the entrance, leaving only room to let part of her head out. Until the fry come out, the male would stay close to the cave but never in (not enough room & not allowed to).Hope the eggs will hatch!
Keep us posted!
