Mike Does it again!

[apistobob]

Last week I posted asking for help IDing a female apisto (here is the thread http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=7758) and Mike provided A. gephyra as a likely answer. Today I got a couple of males from the importer and sure enough Mike was right on the money. Here are a few poor photos I shot of the fish minutes after introduction

Thanks Mike - I have trouble IDing females even when I have the males and here you got it first try - amazing!

Bob

 

[bigbird]

nice males indeed. What else did you expect from Mike, he is our APisto God.....:biggrin:

cheers jk:biggrin:

 

[Gillie]

So hopefully they will be on your list for shipping next spring. I picked up a pair of Atahaulpa from a LFS that orders from you and they are awesome.

 

[Rolo]

Hi,

do you have informations about the locality of these fishes or from where they were imported?

I'm not positive, that they are A. gephyra. They also look a bit like A. sp. "Vitoria do Xingú", but I'm pretty unsure.

On the other hand, if they were sold as A. paucisquamis, it seems that they are from Rio Negro, which obviously would be a sign for A. gephyra.

Mike, what do you think?

regards,
Rolo

 

[Zack Wilson]

These, like my males, seem to have been collected with paucisquamis. Bob showed me a photo from the seller and there are also paucisquamis in with them.

I doubt they are the so-called "Xingu Vitoria" or "Vitoria do Xingu". I got these in spring before last and they are a different fish. Males of the xingu agassizi-type have much less color on the body and a more rounded caudal fin with a faint pattern of vertical rows of spots, from my observations.

 

[Mike Wise]

Rolo,

My guess (it was just an educated guess) was based on the following:

1. They were supposed to be A. paucisquamis, but obviously were an agassizii-group species. A. gephyra & A. agassizii are the only agassizii-group species found with A. paucisquamis.
2. They probably came from the Rio Negro (only collecting location for A. paucisquamis). Between A. gephyra & A. agassizii, A. gephyra is the more common species in the Rio Negro.
3. They lack distinct scales on the stomach. This is a feature Kullander claimed was diagnostic for A. gephyra.

I think that Bob's males are A. gephyra because:

1. A. gephyra males show a bright red seam on the dorsal fin. Male A. sp. Vitória do Xingu has a less bright seam.
2. A. gephyra has a lateral band that is more broad in front of the lateral spot & is more narrow behind the spot. A. sp. Vitória do Xingu has a lateral band that is more broad behind the lateral spot.
3. Most A. sp. Vitória do Xingu males have orange top and bottom borders on the caudal fin. Most A. gephyra males have a black border (like A. agassizii). The spotting in the middle of the fin is more regular on A. sp. Vitória do Xingu than A. gephyra.

 

[Rolo]

Hi Mike,

My guess (it was just an educated guess) was based on the following:

1. They were supposed to be A. paucisquamis, but obviously were an agassizii-group species. A. gephyra & A. agassizii are the only agassizii-group species found with A. paucisquamis.
2. They probably came from the Rio Negro (only collecting location for A. paucisquamis). Between A. gephyra & A. agassizii, A. gephyra is the more common species in the Rio Negro.
3. They lack distinct scales on the stomach. This is a feature Kullander claimed was diagnostic for A. gephyra.

I absolutely agree with your argumentation, but I'm still not positive. ;-)

To make it clear, what my problem is, look at this picture of my A. sp. Vitoria do Xingú. Doesn't it look quite similar to Bob's pictures?

I think that Bob's males are A. gephyra because:

1. A. gephyra males show a bright red seam on the dorsal fin. Male A. sp. Vitória do Xingu has a less bright seam.
2. A. gephyra has a lateral band that is more broad in front of the lateral spot & is more narrow behind the spot. A. sp. Vitória do Xingu has a lateral band that is more broad behind the lateral spot.
3. Most A. sp. Vitória do Xingu males have orange top and bottom borders on the caudal fin. Most A. gephyra males have a black border (like A. agassizii). The spotting in the middle of the fin is more regular on A. sp. Vitória do Xingu than A. gephyra.

1. The red dorsal seam is present and similar to Bob's fish. It also could depend on photography, how bright it looks.

2. I still miss the characteristic difference of the lateral band between A. gephyra and A. agassizii: The distance in the interrupted lateral band in front of the spot is smaller at A. gephyra. It's not seeable well, but at Bob's fish it looks more like a bigger distance.

3. The orange top and bottom of the caudal could be polychromatic. On the other hand A. gephyra mostly have much more colouration, especially yellow at the breast. But this, of course, can also be a matter of poychromatism.

Here's another picture in aggressive mood, where you can see more details.

regards,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

Hi Mike,

I absolutely agree with your argumentation, but I'm still not positive. ;-)

Rolo, I would never disagree with you about your positive identifications (well, almost never:wink. Even I still am not absolutely positive about my ID of the fish. A preserved specimen would be very helpful. As you know, it is extremely difficult to get a positive ID from just a few photos. Nevertheless, I still think that the fish are A. gephyra. The extension of the lateral band in the caudal just looks more like that of A. gephyra. Just call it a "gut feeling", that and the fact that gephyra would be more likely found with paucisquamis (although they could be a mix from different locations).