Loss of ram fry (but we are getting closer)

[RHS788]

I have tried for 7 years to get rams to reproduce. I have read tons of articles, and thanks to people like you am a lot smarter than I once was.

I finally had a wild ram female and a native male reproduce. I pulled the eggs and placed them in a 2.5 gallon with fresh water and they made it. I had about 25 wigglers to the 2-3 day free swim stage.

Knowing how difficult the first few days would be, I introduced some microworms, added some Hikari first bites, and added some frozen bbs. I placed the food on a coconut shell so I could easily remove it. In addition I had a sponge filter that had been operating for about a month since cleaning, and had a lot of java moss. I cleaned out the excess food daily. After about 4-5 days, all the ram fry were toast except for about 3. I am trying to figure out if it was food-related or otherwise.

I cleaned the sand back to the bottom of the tank and put a small amount of microworms on the glass. I noticed a couple of the fry came down to that area and apparently was eating.

All that said, what went wrong and what do I do next time? I would try to raise the bbs, but it is a pain, and I understand they need other food first anyway.

All input is sincerely appreciated.

Randy

 

[lab]

I think you need to hatch bbs to supply your fry with the best possible food. I think you will find the pain less once in the routine. It's really a must when breeding dwarves.
In my experience ram fry will take bbs more or less from day one, but then again there are a few varieties of bbs that differ in nauplia size. Unfortunately I can't tell you what kind of Artemia sp. I use myself. I simply don't know.

I can only urge you to let the parents raise the fry on their own. I understand that blue rams can be difficult in that sense, but my experience is that wild blue rams are excellent parents and will never eat their eggs/larvae. It is essential, however, that you provide them with soft clean water and that they pick a partner themselves. A male and female are not automatically a couple. Wild caught blue rams are delicate and shy, so disturb as little as possible, especially the first 48 hours until the eggs hatch. Once they hatch and more so when the fry swim free the parents will be more outgoing. I just had to clean a tank today for a photo session with 2 day old fry in it and although the parents did not attack my hand they certainly stood their ground without hesitation.
I seriously think we need to get rid of the strains of blue rams that do not care for their brood. As serious hobbyists we could make a difference here. I understand that artificial hatching can sometimes be necessary to ensure that a certain species is available at all in the hobby. This is hardly the case for the blue ram.
This is what went om today in the above mentioned tank:

 

[Cathy G]

Great video, gorgeous fish. Makes me want to work with rams again!

As to what happened, my guess is water quality went down. Did you test for anything - ammonia/nitrite/nitrate?

Try keeping your sponge filter in your main tank until the day they hatch. Try bare bottom tank stuffed with plants - najas grass, java moss, etc.

I don't start out with live bbs and I don't bother with First Bites. I use microworms and whatever live munchies are in the tank. Over feeding probably messed up the water too much. After say 2-3 days I'll begin adding the bbs along with the worms. Bare bottom tanks are easier to clean nightly. Also, imo the wiggling food triggers them to eat so live foods are a must.

Cathy

 

[RHS788]

Thanks to both of you for taking time to reply.

LAB: FYI, I had two wild rams and that was my original goal. The male died, and I had a native male so that was my second option.

Regarding pulling fry, I gave them three chances, thus it was my turn. I agree parent-raised is the best, and I have cacas that I manage that way. I think it promotes good parenting for the next generation.

Cathy, thanks for your response. I have read your article over and over regarding raising rams. I was exchanging water so I don't anticipate that was the problem, but don't know. The remaining three are doing well. I think it was food, not necessarily overfeeding, but the dang things just didn't eat what was available.

What I have done is moved the sand back to the bare tank in one area, and am feeding the microworms in that location. The little buggers seem to be coming to the food, and that is what makes me think it is food.

It is good to hear you feed microworms from the get-go, as I was concerned about the first couple-three days and whether they were eating at that time.

I am getting better, and thanks again for everyone's time to reply.

Hopefully I can pass this on.

Thanks,

Randy

 

[lab]

Thanks Cathy! The video is just an amateurs work though, but the fish are certainly gorgeous.

Randy: I don't think that one generation of artificial hatching matters much. The effect is probably over a longer time span, when you pull the eggs consequently, because you then select in favor of the egg eating behaviour. This is actually a longer discussion we don't need to take now
You do whatever you need to do under the limitations of having only these 2 fish.
If I were to start a breeding project with blue rams, I would start out with at least 5 fish and maybe as many as 10, to let them pair out. My current pair is an end result of 8 fish to begin with.

I agree with Cathy that water quality may have been an issue. Apart from Cathy's good advice, you could also consider removing the parents and let the eggs stay in the original tank. Then there should not be any issues with filtering/water quality, and you would also have a tank incubated with infusoria etc. for the fry to feed on.

Anyway I wish you good luck, and hope that the fry will show you the wonderful brood care of this species.

Lars

 

[RHS788]

The three remaining ram fry are alive and well a week later. I think the issue was either they didn't find/recognize the food, or when I added water, I added water that had just been dechlorinated. Next time I will add water from the main tank, and have a bare spot in the aquarium to place the microworms.