Identifying wild viejitas

[PistUp]

Hey everyone,

I bought these fish last week from Sims Tropical. They are meant to be a wild caught viejita pair, though I’m sceptical after all the reading I’ve done.

Mac Z kindly helped on my intro post and identified these as Domestic Macs (red shoulders).

Before I complain to the seller, please may you knowledgable experts kindly provide a second opinion by identifying the genus and letting me know whether I’ve defo got a male and female?

Sorry if they’re not the best pics, they’re not very good at posing for the camera lol

Regards,

Alex

 

[Apistoguy52]

macmasteri, as stated above. viejita pic attached. Note the red trimmed dorsal fin, and the solid zig-zag lateral band.

 

[MacZ]

At least it's a male/female combination.

I stick with my (species/breed) ID, definitively A. macmasteri.

 

[PistUp]

macmasteri, as stated above. viejita pic attached. Note the red trimmed dorsal fin, and the solid zig-zag lateral band.

Thank you for clarifying. I shall make my complaint, I really wanted wild fish so pretty annoyed about this. Any ideas on the sex of my fish?

 

[PistUp]

At least it's a male/female combination.

I stick with my (species/breed) ID, definitively A. macmasteri.

Thank you again Mac. I appreciate you confirming the sex. May I ask why you stick to Macs and what the benefits of are of this breed over say viejitas?

 

[Apistoguy52]

Thank you for clarifying. I shall make my complaint, I really wanted wild fish so pretty annoyed about this. Any ideas on the sex of my fish?

Who said your fish are not wild? M/f

 

[MacZ]

Who said your fish are not wild? M/f

Me. Colouration points towards domestic strains.

 

[Apistoguy52]

Me. Colouration points towards domestic strains.

Curious. How do we distinguish the fish pictured from the WC red backed populations?

 

[MacZ]

The female has quite a strong reddish tint and more face markings than I ever have seen in wild (type) ones.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Thank you again Mac. I appreciate you confirming the sex. May I ask why you stick to Macs and what the benefits of are of this breed over say viejitas?

By "stick to," Mac is saying that he's 100% confident in the species ID. They are macmasteri, for sure.

Apistogramma viejita is not a breed, but a species. They are virtually impossible to source at the moment and never available for general sale.

I don't believe there's a "benefit" to having either species, really. It just depends on what you like. Many people seem obsessed with wanting to know whether their macmasteri are actually viejita, presumably because true viejita are so rare. In such cases, the fish are always macmasteri.

There is no intrinsic value to viejita over macmasteri. If someone bred and distributed viejita such that anyone could get them, they would have no extra value. Just like Apistogramma sp. Alto Tapiche, pictured in my avatar. Very difficult to collect in the wild, due to the catch location. Several breeders distributed them locally in the States, and now they are 1/10 the price. Beautiful fish. But when "value" is determined by supply and demand, it's essentially meaningless.

 

[PistUp]

The female has quite a strong reddish tint and more face markings than I ever have seen in wild (type) ones.

Thank you for your input guys. Now I can be sure of the variant and gender, and that they are probably tank bred

 

[PistUp]

By "stick to," Mac is saying that he's 100% confident in the species ID. They are macmasteri, for sure.

Apistogramma viejita is not a breed, but a species. They are virtually impossible to source at the moment and never available for general sale.

I don't believe there's a "benefit" to having either species, really. It just depends on what you like. Many people seem obsessed with wanting to know whether their macmasteri are actually viejita, presumably because true viejita are so rare. In such cases, the fish are always macmasteri.

There is no intrinsic value to viejita over macmasteri. If someone bred and distributed viejita such that anyone could get them, they would have no extra value. Just like Apistogramma sp. Alto Tapiche, pictured in my avatar. Very difficult to collect in the wild, due to the catch location. Several breeders distributed them locally in the States, and now they are 1/10 the price. Beautiful fish. But when "value" is determined by supply and demand, it's essentially meaningless.

Apologies, I misunderstood the comment. Thanks for the heads up around viejitas not being available and the situation around wild catching. I liked the pictures I had seen of the viejitas online, though it sounds like they were pictures of macs anyway. I’ll speak to the vendor and explain I feel a bit mislead and feel I overpaid; but I’ll stick with my fish, they’re beautiful and displaying wonderful behaviour which is what counts at the end of the day

 

[Mike Wise]

Me. Colouration points towards domestic strains.

Wrong. This looks exactly like my Red-shoulder Macs from the 1980s. This is a wildcaught male.

 

[PistUp]

Wrong. This looks exactly like my Red-shoulder Macs from the 1980s. This is a wildcaught male.
View attachment 14161

Wow, thanks for sharing this! I stand amongst Jedis

The only thing I would say is that the red on my Mac is definitely more solid, though I am attempting to condition him and he is putting on a real show so I guess he may be displaying breeding colours? The red on the fish in the picture you provided is more speckled.

Does this mean much if anything?

 

[MacZ]

Wrong. This looks exactly like my Red-shoulder Macs from the 1980s. This is a wildcaught male.

I stand corrected if you say they might be wild caught. (Although I was completely going by the female's colours.)

Also the excessive use of the word "mac" is confusing me.

 

[Mike Wise]

Wow, thanks for sharing this! I stand amongst Jedis

The only thing I would say is that the red on my Mac is definitely more solid, though I am attempting to condition him and he is putting on a real show so I guess he may be displaying breeding colours? The red on the fish in the picture you provided is more speckled.

Does this mean much if anything?

This is a male from the same export that won 3d place in the ACA national cichlid show in 1983. That male had more red. The colors in wild specimen tend to be more variable than in line-bred strains.

 

[Mike Wise]

Also the excessive use of the word "mac" is confusing me.

That's was their common name here in the 70s & later. Mark (McMaster) had no problems with it.

 

[MacZ]

That's was their common name here in the 70s & later. Mark (McMaster) had no problems with it.

I know, it was just a funny sidenote, not a complaint, because it made reading 2-3 posts above really hard.

 

[anewbie]

btw seriousfish has a nice write up and this picture of a male viejtas:

Apistogramma viejita – Red Edge Apisto — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com