ID request - A. commbrae?

[boofeng]

These are in the display tank of a local shop. They were imported as A. steindachneri from east Europe, but they look more like a fish from the regani group, it seems. These are F1/F2 I think - they've done well in the display tank which is a typical Amano nature aquarium style tank.

Anyone have an opinion on what fish these are?

 

[Mike Wise]

Hard to say exactly which species from these photos, but definitely not A. commbrae - nor any other commbrae-complex species. It doesn't show the double caudal patch diagnostic of commbrae-complex species. I agree it appears to be a regani-group species, probably in the cruzi-sub-complex (eunotus-complex).

 

[Frank Hättich]

To me they look like a macmasteri-complex species.

 

[Mike Wise]

Most mac-complex species have a deeper body / higher back shape.

 

[Frank Hättich]

That's true Mike, but most cruzi-subcomplex species are more high-bodied too, isn't it? Moreover, high-bodiedness seems to be one of the more variable features in many species. Therefore, I tend to rely more on the lateral band in this case, and that looks perfectly mac-like to me.

 

[Mike Wise]

There are a few deep-bodied cruzi-like species (A. sp. Nanay & A. sp. Napo 3 comes to mind), but most are less laterally compressed than mac-complex species. It would be helpful to see photos of the fish with a spread dorsal fin. Cruzi-like species typically have lower, non-serrated dorsal spine when compared to mac-complex species.

(BTW Frank I'm still digging through my library for old hard copies of apisto species list to discover when Caqueta was added to the species. I'll get back to you soon (I hope).)

 

[Frank Hättich]

(BTW Frank I'm still digging through my library for old hard copies of apisto species list to discover when Caqueta was added to the species. I'll get back to you soon (I hope).)

Thanks Mike, I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

On the fish: I believe that body shape is just too variable to rule out that it is a macmasteri-complex species. There will always be specimens that differ substantially from the typical body shape of a given species. For example, here (klick) are two slender macs with a body-shape quite similar to the fish in question. I also remember that Tom once had a very slender mac-like fish from the Tame area. And in my opinion, the lateral band of the above fish is much more typical of macmasteri-complex species rather than of cruzi-subcomplex ones. That's why I think it belongs to the former rather than to the latter. But to see more photos would certainly be a good idea!

 

[Mike Wise]

But to see more photos would certainly be a good idea!

I certainly agree.

 

[Rolo]

Well, the fish even show the typical red edges in the caudal, which I've never seen in the cruzi subcomplex. So, I totally agree with Frank.
And if I look at my A.viejita, the body shape is absolutely not an adequate characteristic. Usually it is said that viejita is more slender and macmasteri more high bodied. Well, I have both in my viejita, slender ones and high bodied ones.

regards,
Rolo

 

[boofeng]

Wow, this has generated a lively discussion! I'll try to get more photos at lunch - this shop is near my workplace.

Thanks for all the input so far!

 

[boofeng]

Here are the best photos with raised dorsal fins I could get. They were very shy and were quite peaceable - I saw this one instance of fin flaring the entire half hour I was there.

I also noticed the tail does have the top and bottom red edges so characteristic of the macmasteri group - but the reds on this fish do tend towards the magenta side of red (rare colour among the macmasteri group fish I've seen?).

Also, I saw maybe 6-7 fish (all very shy!) - and all were definitely long-ish - not high bodied laterally compressed at all. In terms of shape they resemble my Peru bitaeniata a lot.

And, about the 2-4 horizontal abdominal stripes - are those any good at all for diagnostics? All the fish have them.

 

[Mike Wise]

After seeing the last photos I have to agree with Frank & Rollo. It does look like a mac-complex species - serrated dorsal spines and well developed zig-zag lateral band.

I personally don't consider the red on the caudal to be a diagnostic feature in this fish. Most of the red (pink?) is confined to the lower lobe. Several cruzi-like species from the Rio Napo have a similar pattern - although I will admit that it's usually on the upper lobe. Some, like A. cf. aguarico (Cuyabeno) that TomC & I found in the Cuyabeno National Park of Ecuador actually show red margins, top and bottom, on the caudal fin. It actually looks a lot the fish photographed here - but is different.

 

[Tom C]

... Most of the red (pink?) is confined to the lower lobe. Several cruzi-like species from the Rio Napo have a similar pattern - although I will admit that it's usually on the upper lobe. ...

Remember this A. cf. cruzi form, Mike, from San Rafael (Rio Curaray/Napo, Peru)? The red/pink is on the lower lobe...the orange on the upper.

After seeing the lateral band so clearly, and the dorsal fin, I of course agree to put boofeng's fish the A.-macmasteri-complex. But it for sure has some interesting similarities with some fishes in the cruzi-complex.

 

[Mike Wise]

Tom, may is show forum members your photo of A. cf. aguarico (Cuyabeno)?

 

[Tom C]

Yes, of course, Mike

 

[boofeng]

Thanks for sharing that, Tom. Would love to see that Cuyabeno fish too.

 

[Mike Wise]

OK, here's Tom's photo:

Similar looking to the fish in question? I'm sure they are different species.

 

[boofeng]

Thanks Mike and Tom for the photos. I really can't say - just a newbie here - and there are so many spectacular fish out there!

But comparing the local fish with this photo - I'd say no they don't look like the same fish. The only similarity is the abdominal stripes. And the location of colours on the tail, maybe?

I'm tempted to keep some of this fish. If I do that I'll put better photos up in future.

For now, I guess the verdict is it's just an unknown macmasteri-complex fish.! Thanks once again, everyone.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Similar looking to the fish in question? I'm sure they are different species.

Yes, similar but for sure different species. Are the colored areas in the caudal fin always yellowish/orangish or can they become red too?

 

[Mike Wise]

I don't really know. We only did 'catch, photograph, and release'. This was Ecuador, which doesn't permit commercial collecting of its wildlife - and it was in a national park. We paid locals (me actually, since I was the only one with US$) to take us into the park looking for Kãstner's A. cf. payaminonis (= A. wolli ?), which we didn't find there.