Help with Sexing/ID...

[JasonC]

Hi,

Picked these up from LFS this weekend. I was promised that they was a M/F pair of A. Cac. "Red Flame". Not so sure anymore... In my, admittedly limited, experience, the "female" is looking more and more like a male. Opinions?

Male:

"Female":

Thanks!!

 

[Sharpfish]

The second photo is a female. Look at the dorsal fin heighth and lack of the signature dorsal serration (spikes). Females have a flat level dorsal. The first photo is probably male, or a really nice colored female. Look for a high spiked dorsal fin it is the easiest thing to notice on a male. I never heard of 'Red Flame' that must be the new trade marketing name. They look like 'Triple Red' to me. The red is on all the unpaired fins (dorsal, tail, and anal).

 

[JasonC]

Sharpfish,

Thanks for the great info... dont know why, but I didnt even notice the missing dorsal spines on my female.. she just looks a lot darker than I thought she would... but it makes sense that that would be a quick telltale.

The other is definitely a male then because he has finally started perking up and looks to have a beautiful rack of spines... just got to get them both to heal their fins up a bit... they both look like they got roughed up a bit in the LFS tank...

I had also not heard of red flame, but then again, i am still very new so it wouldnt have suprised me. So triple red? What is the difference between the male triple red's coloration and a standard Cac males coloration? I thought that the standard had the same red/black stippling on all unpaired fins?

Thanks again!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Hi JasonC, they look a nice pair, like Sharpfish said they are "triple red" although "double red" and "triple red" are used pretty interchangeably for males with lots of red colour. The fins should heal up quickly, just keep up the water changes.

The females looks fine, when I'm selecting new cacatuoides as breeding stock, I tend to ignore the colour and go for a dark, chunky fish with good fin development. As soon as she has spawned she will change colour to bright yellow with contrasting black ventrals. I keep mine as a harem of 1 male and up to 10 females, and most of the females will stay yellow, to some degree, even when they are not guarding their own fry.

The wild forms of A. cacatuoides are much more variable, the red/orange forms are widely bred and sold, as "red" fish tend to sell best. I think this is also the reason most hongsloi and mcmasteri you see are red forms. I really like the wild types, but I know from experience that a lot of LFS don't like them.

Have a look at these posts by Steve (Ste12000), he's an English cichlid breeder and he has bred stunning wild collected pairs of both A. cacatuoides and A. hongsloi recently.

<http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=8222&page=2>
<http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=8486>

cheers Darrel

 

[Lolojil]

I think that it is rather a young male (breed form "Orange") .

 

[JasonC]

ooh... interesting... what are you seeing that brings you to that conclusion? Should I try to get some better pictures? Any specific parts that I could focus on that would help inform a definitive answer?

Thanks!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I still think it's probably a female, with lots of colour in the unpaired fins.
I see what Lolojil means, particularly looking at the shape, of the admittedly ragged, caudal fin.

Even sexing "easy to sex" Apistos is not always straight forward, and last year I managed to select and sell several "trios" of A. cacatuoides that were all females.

Sexing points here
<http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=8739>
<http://forum.apistogramma.com/showthread.php?t=4349>

A. cacatuoides is quite quick growing, so in a tank with a bit more space I'd would expect that the male characteristics (and male/male aggression, if its a sleeper male) would become apparent fairly quickly.

cheers Darrel

 

[JasonC]

Thanks for the links... all very informative! So re the dorsal fin spines... will a female have a completely flat dorsal, or will there be small ridges/scallops in place of the long spines of the male? I am seeing more of his/her dorsal fully extended, and if a female has no indication of spines, then this may be a juvie male. I will try to get more pictures...

*if* this turns out to be 2 males, what would I need to do to get them to co-habitate peacefully? I would like to find a way for this to work as I got these fish in a going-out-of-business sale at my LFS and cant return them.

 

[Sharpfish]

Your second photo is a good photo of a classic cacatuoides female. The dorsal is in full view. The first photo is the one who sex is in question. You definitley have one female. Compare the two fish or post another photo with the fish in questions dorsal up in full view. The first fish looks young, so the finnage could still be a little short. But there should still be a visable difference if it is indeed a male.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'd be 100% confident the triple/double red male is a male. I think the only question can be whether the bottom photo is a female with a lot of orange in her unpaired fins, or a "sleeper male".
I'm also like Sharpfish pretty confident it's a female.

Cheers Darrel

 

[JasonC]

Here are two more pictures. Since it seems that one of the key indicators is the dorsal spines, I did what I could to get them to flare so you could see the full extended fin better.

I think that our "male" is absolutly, without question a male:

This is a better picture of the "female". She seems to have more spines than I thought... is this a more telling picture?

I can crop closer to the fins if you need more detail.

Thanks again!!

 

[Lolojil]

With the last pic it 's clearly a young male:wink:.

Look at the unpaired fins and the lyretail !!! The first dorsal spines are too much developed to be a female. The ventral fins are blue and not really black like a female.

You just have to wait a little and you will see it growing and .................... becoming a male.

 

[JasonC]

Okay... well, this makes things an unfortunate pickle. What do I need to do to make the tank hospitable for 2 males? This is a medium planted 20Gal.. though it should be heavily planted once stuff starts growing in.

thanks for all of everyones help! you all are great!

 

[Sharpfish]

If that is indeed a photo of the same fish than I made a mistake. I should have ask you how big the fish were. They are probably younger than I was thinking. The new photo and information should help clear up your questions of the sex. In two months you probably won't recognize the fish compared to the pictures posted here. Place a formation or territorial barrier in the middle of the tank ( mound of rocks, driftwood, large row of plants), then place a cave or hiding spaces in the outside corners of the tank. The farther away from each other the better. Put in a half dozen dither fish danios, tetras, or even small barbs. They should be okay. Just make sure there are plenty of places to hide and not see each other.