Had to remove male Panduro (help)

[Fred13]

Hello,

I hope I am in the right section.

I have an 80 gallons (330 litres) black water tank with cardinal tetras, German blue rams (2 not breeding pair yet) and some corydoras (cw10 and sterbai).

Tank is considered mature (7+ months) with two external filters and weekly maintenance
I am attaching a few photos to have an idea.

Last week I introduced a pair of apistogramma panduro.
I was aware of the potential issues of having them along with german blues but due to the tanks size I decided to make it work.

Unfortunately, 1 week later the male became excessively aggressive towards the german blues and the cories.
Despite the tank has plenty of space It seems that the male perceives the whole tank as his territory.
His aggression isn’t because of breeding it is 100% territorial.

Sadly, I removed him tonight and moved him into a 13 litres quarantine tank because he was under rage mode.
I am really impressed of this fish but I don’t want to harm my german blue nor my cories.

So I am thinking:

1) make the hard scape more complex and add caves like coconuts, tubes, etc etc and then adding him back praying for the best.

2) giving him back to the Lfs and keep the female (I hate that solution)

3) A friend can temporarily lend me a 30 litres cube ( the classic dennerle). I can put him there until I decide if I can make a dedicated 60p tank for those fish. Something really difficult at the moment, financially and space wise. But Is it possible to keep him alone and take care of him in the 30 litres cube ?

Any help would be more than appreciated.
Thank you for your time,
Fred

 

[anewbie]

I'm not sure - i was warned in this forum by Mike or Frank that putting a nijjensi pair in a 4ftx4ft aquarium there was a good chance they would claim the entire aquarium.. I got the impression that they are not a good choice to mix with other cichild. That doesn't mean a more complex scape won't work and it probably doesn't hurt to try but you should not be surprise if it doesn't work.

 

[MacZ]

Despite the tank has plenty of space It seems that the male perceives the whole tank as his territory.
His aggression isn’t because of breeding it is 100% territorial.

Space - yes. Structure - no. That's the problem.

The tank is basically just an open plain. No cover and bright light stress fish out, additionally they stress each other. There is no breaking of the lines of sight. All fish can see each other at the other end of the tank. No way to escape and evade each other. Not surprised by the behaviour you describe.

1) make the hard scape more complex and add caves like coconuts, tubes, etc etc and then adding him back praying for the best.

Triple the amounts of driftwood and make sure to break the lines of sight so the fish can evade each other. Caves are useless, these are dwarf cichlids, not Malawi cichlids. If a dwarf cichlid uses a cave for something else besides breeding it is already stressed to the limit. Also the Mikrogeophagus will not use them at all.
The tank as it is, is halfway decently decorated for Corydoras (those would require some more cover too, actually) and so-so for Mikrogeophagus. For Apistogramma it is absolutely not suitable.

2) giving him back to the Lfs and keep the female (I hate that solution)

No need for that. And if so return both. I am also pretty sure the behaviour would be very different without the female's sexual hormons in the water. She's bright yellow, meaning she's ready to breed.

3) A friend can temporarily lend me a 30 litres cube ( the classic dennerle). I can put him there until I decide if I can make a dedicated 60p tank for those fish. Something really difficult at the moment, financially and space wise. But Is it possible to keep him alone and take care of him in the 30 litres cube ?

Only a short term solution, 30 liters are too small long term.

 

[Wazaaaa]

A small idea of my 300 liters tank with 4 Apistogramma sp Miua, 2 males and 2 females sharing half the tank and 15 Nannostomus Unifasciatus

 

[Fred13]

Space - yes. Structure - no. That's the problem.

The tank is basically just an open plain. No cover and bright light stress fish out, additionally they stress each other. There is no breaking of the lines of sight. All fish can see each other at the other end of the tank. No way to escape and evade each other. Not surprised by the behaviour you describe.


Triple the amounts of driftwood and make sure to break the lines of sight so the fish can evade each other. Caves are useless, these are dwarf cichlids, not Malawi cichlids. If a dwarf cichlid uses a cave for something else besides breeding it is already stressed to the limit. Also the Mikrogeophagus will not use them at all.
The tank as it is, is halfway decently decorated for Corydoras (those would require some more cover too, actually) and so-so for Mikrogeophagus. For Apistogramma it is absolutely not suitable.


No need for that. And if so return both. I am also pretty sure the behaviour would be very different without the female's sexual hormons in the water. She's bright yellow, meaning she's ready to breed.


Only a short term solution, 30 liters are too small long term.

A small idea of my 300 liters tank with 4 Apistogramma sp Miua, 2 males and 2 females sharing half the tank and 15 Nannostomus Unifasciatus

Thank you all for your replies!

You are absolutely right. So great complexity you provide in your tank l, I really like it.

You are right that there is not enough complexity in mine. I have already ordered Amazon liana wood and some extra pieces of branches to add them asap.

Do your scape works fine even in breeding period ?!

I am not really into returning none of them.
I lean towards keeping the male into the 30 litres cube alone until the new hard scape arrives.

Any additional tips are more than appreciated

Thank you,
Fred

 

[MacZ]

Do your scape works fine even in breeding period ?!

As we provide mostly constant conditions year-round the breeding seasons of the wild fish dissipate mostly, and depending on your setup and parameters fish may be constantly in breeding mode.

I lean towards keeping the male into the 30 litres cube alone until the new hard scape arrives.

You are aware that it doesn't really matter whether you move the male or the female? Once they are separated the problem should dissolve.

Any additional tips are more than appreciated

Some pictures and a schematic of how to build a working scape. Please be aware that my tank houses yet another genus of dwarf cichlid (Dicrossus), so the scape is oriented differently within the tank. Doesn't change anything about the principles.

 

[Fred13]

As we provide mostly constant conditions year-round the breeding seasons of the wild fish dissipate mostly, and depending on your setup and parameters fish may be constantly in breeding mode.


You are aware that it doesn't really matter whether you move the male or the female? Once they are separated the problem should dissolve.


Some pictures and a schematic of how to build a working scape. Please be aware that my tank houses yet another genus of dwarf cichlid (Dicrossus), so the scape is oriented differently within the tank. Doesn't change anything about the principles.
View attachment 11860
View attachment 11859 View attachment 11858

I see, good job you did there. Do they really get along well and cope with its other aggression ?

I lean towards adding lots of new hard scape instead of returning the fish.

Yes it will dissolve, btw the female showed some aggression yesterday after removing the male and I believe that’s a “ladder-hierarchy thing” since the male isn’t there anymore.

 

[Fred13]

I have one more question regarding the territories.
It seems that my female ram has established its territory at the right side , in a cave-like hole among branches at the upper levels of the tank. It is a little bit weird that she chooses the upper water level than the lower since it’s a ram but I guess the complexity at this spot makes her feel comfortable.

Anyway, let’s assume that I add the complexity and bring back the male panduro.
What if he chooses the same right side?

Is there any trick to make him interested in the left one ?

 

[MacZ]

Do they really get along well and cope with its other aggression ?

Completely different thing, I don't even want to compare the behaviour of Apistogramma and Dicrossus.

I believe that’s a “ladder-hierarchy thing”

Be careful with such interpretations. Usually all agression stays within a species, you made the cardinal mistake of mixing dwarf cichlid species with quite different requitrements. This would not happen under normal circumstances.

Anyway, let’s assume that I add the complexity

Please, it's not complexity, it's structure. It doesn't have to be complex. A big piece of rootwood that simply cuts the tank in half can be structure.

Anyhow, if you provide correct structure all fish should be able to find their respective spaces and evade each other.

Then looking at the rest of your stock... to be frank: Set up another dedicated tank for the Apistogramma. It will be hard to manage 2 pairs of dwarf cichlids AND two groups of Corydoras in the same tank.

 

[Fred13]

Completely different thing, I don't even want to compare the behaviour of Apistogramma and Dicrossus.


Be careful with such interpretations. Usually all agression stays within a species, you made the cardinal mistake of mixing dwarf cichlid species with quite different requitrements. This would not happen under normal circumstances.


Please, it's not complexity, it's structure. It doesn't have to be complex. A big piece of rootwood that simply cuts the tank in half can be structure.

Anyhow, if you provide correct structure all fish should be able to find their respective spaces and evade each other.

Then looking at the rest of your stock... to be frank: Set up another dedicated tank for the Apistogramma. It will be hard to manage 2 pairs of dwarf cichlids AND two groups of Corydoras in the same tank.

Thank you

I am really interested in dicrossus, very nice fish that I barely find where I leave.

I have read that some apistos leave with rams in the wild, however, I understand that there are several differences making them difficult to keep.

My honest problem is that I don’t have much space to accommodate a 60 or 70 litres dedicated tank. I would really love to though but I am out of space to do so.

1) So my guess is add the “structure” (as you have already correctly mentioned), bring back the male and observe.

2) Remove the pair and give them back to shop :/.

3) remove the cories and free the space for the dwarfs.

If it’s impossible to keep them all together despite the structure I will take them back to lfs even if I really hate to do that.

As far as I understand though it is possible .

 

[Fred13]

I ended up only with the female panduro.
I love this fish, amazing character.

I put a photo after 2 months of having the fish. She also got a little larger.