Dwarf cichlid in a 22 gal,plus some questions :)

[cichlidthinker]

I recently discovered i cant have african cichlids (peacocks,mbunas etc),so i am going for dwarfs ! What types do you suggest for this tank and do you use the same rule as for the africans(bigger kinds) when it comes to overstocking the tank to reduce aggression ? (if so how many?,i heard you divide the gallon number by 2 ,so 10 ?)
And is circulation very important or can i just use a normal filter which comes with the tank?
I have had fish for many years just not cichlids,so any advice is accepted !

 

[cichlidthinker]

Oh i forgot i do not intend on breeding so an all male tank if it makes any diffrence, the tank looks dirty but its not (the camera is funky) also sorry for any misspellings my english is not the best

 

[Mike Wise]

Mbunas are very different in their biotope and behavior from SA dwarfs. Where it's a good idea to crowd mbunas, which don't establish permanent breeding territories, SA dwarfs mostly do. I often recommend that each fish have a territory about 1' square, separated by line-of-sight barriers that form territorial boundaries. In a tank decorated like yours, with no territorial boundaries, the dominant male will make a living Hell for the other tank members. It been reported many times where a single dominant apisto male has claimed aquariums over 6' long as its territory because it could see across the entire tank. Most of the other fish will be driven to the upper reaches of the tank, a place where they do not normally belong. Stress often weakens and causes the fish to die early. The next thing to consider is that these fish are from soft water so, if you are using a carbonate (rift lake) substrate, it will have to be replaced by a chemically inert sand. If all of this seems disconcerting or too much trouble, then I would suggest trying some of the Central American cichlids. Sorry if this sounds like a 'major downer', but I just don't want you to be disappointed with cichlid keeping. There is a lot of good information on keeping dwarfs on this site. Just run a search.

 

[cichlidthinker]

So i cant have dwarfs in this tank is that what you are saying ?

 

[Mol_PMB]

So i cant have dwarfs in this tank is that what you are saying ?

What are your water parameters (pH, hardness etc) and what sort of rock and gravel have you got in the tank at the moment? As Mike says, the African Lake cichlids require very different water parameters to the South American dwarfs. (African: very hard, alkaline; S.American: very soft, acidic).

If tank size is the reason you can't have 'normal' African lake cichlids, but you have hard water, then you could consider the Tanganyika shell-dwelling cichlids which are much smaller and quite characterful. They have some special requirements (e.g. shells and sand) but Google will help, or this may be a useful link:
http://fish-etc.com/fish/cichlids/the-shell-dwelling-cichlids

If you have (or can make) soft acidic water, then you can set up the tank afresh with some sand substrate, plants and caves, then you could keep one pair of SA dwarfs in a tank that size, maybe with a shoal of smaller tetras.

Hope that helps

 

[cichlidthinker]

Thank you , i have not tested the water yet but i have gravel (the one you can find outside but cleaned) , do cichlids really hate that type of thing , do they REALLY need sand substrate ? Just such a bother taking all the gravel out , but about the shellies can i just have a pair ? , i was hoping for many cichlids to make my tank pop ( but i wont do anything i shouldnt do ,as i am new to cichlids )

 

[MickeM]

Hi cichlidthinker + all..

If you want to keep Apistos and give them a "close-to-nature" habitat, the best you can do is to let them have sand they can "swift" through their mouths+gills.. It looks like that makes them calm too..
That is usually their normal food searching behaviour (which they do almost 100% of their "awake" hours..)
Maybe you can search in this forum or on the web "Apistogramma in nature/natural habitat" and take a look at the pics there..?? If you search "Tom Apistogramma" you will end up on a very nice Norwegian Apisto homesite !! Lots of travel pics!!
If you change to sand you will probably get rewarded by really fascinating behaviours.. for example.. females digging out their "caves" while guarding eggs and wrigglers/fry !! (I some times use the sand my Local Pet Shop sells to birds cages.. )

If your gravel is a calcium/mineralrich+porous type you will have trouble to drop the pH..+generate good plant growth!!
Take a close-up pic on the gravel if you can..!! Then someone here probably can help you out!!??

Some Apistos that often do well in ph 6-7 are Ap. baenschi, trifasciata, borelli, cacatouides..

I guess you can keep a few shells in the tank if they are "hard" (not porous), without major problems in pH 6,5-7.

/MickeM

 

[Mol_PMB]

+1 for sand, whether you go for SA dwarfs or shellies.
But for the SA you will need inert silica sand while for the shellies you may be better off with coral sand.

I'd strongly suggest finding out the pH and hardness of your tap water (let it stand a few hours before testing) and also your tank water. This will help you make a decision on the best fish for you. It is certainly possible to adjust water parameters to suit the fish but it involves extra cost and hassle. Easier to get fish that suit your water

You can keep a single pair of shellies or a single pair of apistos. Neither work well in the crowded conditions that Malawis are kept in, and your tank isn't really big enough for many more. Maybe a threesome?

 

[MickeM]

Hi cichlidthinker + all..

If you want to keep Apistos and give them a "close-to-nature" habitat, the best you can do is to let them have sand they can "swift" through their mouths+gills.. It looks like that makes them calm too..
That is usually their normal food searching behaviour (which they do almost 100% of their "awake" hours..)
Maybe you can search in this forum or on the web "Apistogramma in nature/natural habitat" and take a look at the pics there..?? If you search "Tom Apistogramma" you will end up on a very nice Norwegian Apisto homesite !! Lots of travel pics!!
If you change to sand you will probably get rewarded by really fascinating behaviours.. for example.. females digging out their "caves" while guarding eggs and wrigglers/fry !! (I some times use the sand my Local Pet Shop sells to birds cages.. )

If your gravel is a calcium/mineralrich+porous type you will have trouble to drop the pH..+generate good plant growth!!
Take a close-up pic on the gravel if you can..!! Then someone here probably can help you out!!??

Some Apistos that often do well in ph 6-7 are Ap. baenschi, trifasciata, borelli, cacatouides..

I guess you can keep a few shells in the tank if they are "hard" (not porous), without major problems in pH 6,5-7.

/MickeM

Sorry about the last comment!!!!

BIG misunderstanding about the shellies from my part!! I was tired in the middle of the night and thought you were talking about decoration oystershells or something similar!!

 

[cichlidthinker]

Thank you all for you information , i think i will go with a community tank ( 4x corys 1x dwarf gourami 1x pleco 6x neon tetras ,thoughts?) , i will soon buy a jewel rio 180 and then i will get africans thanks again all

 

[Mike Wise]

It seems fine to me, but I'd probably add 6 more neons. These are spectacular in a larger school.

 

[uberape]

i was misold gravel as being ph and hardness neutral, my ph is 7.6 and hardness 240 ppm. I can tell you that cacatuoides and bolivian rams are ok with this water quality. I have wild cacas and they are breeding in this water. I really think cacas are just lumped in with other apisto's when it comes to water quality- the research i did which i unfortunately cant relay to you, said that wild cacas were found in harder water of peru as well as soft water- actually a peruvian guy said they come from hard water rivers and streams. My wild fish do not care, actually they are thriving, both females are breeding although i have not yet seen any fry but they are defending there caves and are bright yellow. if your not about breeding anyway i would check that your water isnt over ph 7.6 but i think its a myth that they need <7.0 for a good life. ps you can use the local fish store to test your water correctly.

 

[Simon Morgan]

Thank you all for you information , i think i will go with a community tank ( 4x corys 1x dwarf gourami 1x pleco 6x neon tetras ,thoughts?) , i will soon buy a jewel rio 180 and then i will get africans thanks again all

Why not have12 neons (or cardinals as they are nicer imo) ? 6-8 Cories and a pair or two of dwarf cichlids. Bolivian rams are very hardy for example. Avoid the plec unless you mean a Bristle nose, common plecs get very large!

 

[MickeM]

i was misold gravel as being ph and hardness neutral, my ph is 7.6 and hardness 240 ppm. I can tell you that cacatuoides and bolivian rams are ok with this water quality. I have wild cacas and they are breeding in this water. I really think cacas are just lumped in with other apisto's when it comes to water quality- the research i did which i unfortunately cant relay to you, said that wild cacas were found in harder water of peru as well as soft water- actually a peruvian guy said they come from hard water rivers and streams. My wild fish do not care, actually they are thriving, both females are breeding although i have not yet seen any fry but they are defending there caves and are bright yellow. if your not about breeding anyway i would check that your water isnt over ph 7.6 but i think its a myth that they need <7.0 for a good life. ps you can use the local fish store to test your water correctly.

Hi uberape + all..

Did you get any fry??

This is the reason I`m asking ..
(When I wrote this I did not mention anything about the kH/GH/EC/TDS..) I wrote:

"If your gravel is a calcium/mineralrich+porous type you will have trouble to drop the pH..+generate good plant growth!!"


I guess the pH is not always a problem for the fishes to start spawning (especially not in the "hardwater" species).
The fishes can live in that water for ages...

But when it comes to other water parameters than the pH...

What might be a problem is the possibility for the eggs to be fertalized/develope in a normal way.. or having difficulties to hatch?? (but I don`t think this is the case ..if the fry is already healthy inside the egg..)

Sometimes it looks to have been a sucessfully spawning act, but it fails in some way....
A lot of people then say/think that it is a matter of a "bad" couple not matching..(genetic mismatch?), but to me it is logic, and leading to internal problems, when maybe(?) the female suddenly stops to care for her fungus infected eggs!!(one possible example)

A friend of mine have been breeding a lot of different "softwater" fishes in water with EC= <1000 microSiemens/l (??),
so it does not seem to be problems everytime ions are "free" in the water.. ??
I think it depends on which chemicals are involved...!!!! and in that breeding case, a calcium/mineralrich soil
might be negative/"wrong" to use??

/MickeM

 

[regani]

If you go into the literature you will find that the locations where A. cacatuoides has been found are closer to the Andes and in areas where there are more minerals in the water with usually 5-12 dGH, 4-16 dKH, up to 510uS conductivity and pH 6.5-8 (Staeck and Linke).
A. cacatuoides is rarely found in black water habitats. According to Roemer this is likely due to the fact that other apisto species are better adapted to those habitats and the cacatuoides get out-competed there. But he also notes that they show better reproduction in softer more acidic water.
I am sure there are a few other apistos that fit the same picture and it is just another case of too much generalisation across what is a really large number of species. Not uncommon in many areas in the internet - wait, that was another generalisation...
If you want more reliable information you can't beat books that are usually exposed to much more editorial scrutiny.

 

[MickeM]

Thanks for great info regani !!

It might be a kind of Apisto that only spawn one.. or two ?? times /season ..after a heavy rain period?? ( Like other Apistos also do, I guess??)
When almost all the water parameters drop!!?? (maybe not pH..!)

 

[regani]

I can't speculate on how often apistos spawn in nature, I just don't know enough about them in their natural habitat.
In my tanks they spawn mostly readily during the (southern) summer months when the water is warmer and slow down when the temperatures drop to minimum temperature set on the heaters. But I have had the occasional spawn then as well.

The water values given in books and articles are probably to be taken with a grain of salt. Not that they in themselves are incorrect, but most of them would have taken during the dry season when many of the areas are more accessible for collecting and therefore are not necessarily representative for water values throughout the year.

Some of the people here who been out there collecting may be able to shed more light on that issue.

But we are digressing quite far from the original post
maybe we should start a new thread

 

[MickeM]

Good idea ..

I will do that by asking a question about "Waterchemistry when heating/raising temp. a few degrees" .. in the forum -Water Chemistry .

See you there later on, maybe tomorrow! ( I will have to go to sleep now.., 03.21 !!!)

 

[MonteSS]

Look in to the African Shellies. You can keep a group and they wont fight

Multies I think they are known as.