Cruzi ?? - confirmation needed

[K-Pon]

I bought these fish as Apistogramma Cruzi. Now i'm wondering ....
What do You thing m8s ??

Females



Males



At feew Photos is wild A. Iniridae female for my m8 iDiDiT (at saturday she wille have new home)

 

[jose_vogel]

I´m sorry to told you K-Pon that -IMHO- it´s not A. cruzi (A83).

I can´t see the abdominal stripes nor the strange caudal spot that the true A. cruzi has.

 

[K-Pon]

Don't apologize
They are Young Fish and i can wait to for correct identification I wonder what is this, what I bought as Cruzi
For me Important is that they are WILD

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree with Jose, it is not the true A. cruzi. The females look like A. cf. eunotus. Some of the males look like A. sp. Nanay, but I cannot be certain based on the photos.

 

[K-Pon]

Interesting ....
I bought Pebas as Papagei and wanted Nanay ....
Now i bought sth like Nanay/Eunotus as Cruzi

Edited:
How can I help in identification ? What information do you need ?

 

[Mike Wise]

I think that you confused A. sp. Nanay. Römer uses this name for the same species as A. sp. Papagei. You should not! Papagei does not occur in the Río Nanay. It is from the Río Ampiyacu. Römer made a mistake and refuses to correct it. The name A. sp. Nanay was first used for fish sold by Julio Melgar that come from the Río Nanay. Römer's name this fish A. sp. Melgar.

 

[K-Pon]

I quite am "broken" now .....
I am fortunately the person who is pleased from what I have

I have CA1 and CA2, what you command me Mike from the English literature (I ask for the author, title and the year of the extradition).

 

[jose_vogel]

I strongly recommend these:

"Die Buntbarsche Amerikas Band 2: Apistogramma & Co" by Kowlowski
"South American Dwarf Cichlids" -Datz Special Publication-

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree with Jose, the 2 book he suggests are more accurate. Sadly, in my opinion (and that of many other authors'), CA1 & CA2 have many errors. Since they are also more widely distributed, the errors keep being repeated.

I have discussed the Papagei/Nanay/Melgar problem here many times. Here is part of a comment that I wrote in an earlier thread:

"As for the original A. sp. Nanay (=A. sp. Melgar from the Rio Nanay), this was examined by me a couple of years ago in the ACA's Buntbarsche Bulletin. A. sp. Nanayis a cruzi-like fish that Melgar sent to Römer in 1998 along with A. sp. Papagei. Uwe incorrectly believed that the two forms were the same species." (I discussed this with Uwe. He says that there was 'miscommunication' about where the 2 fish were collected - i.e. he mistranslated Melgar's email.) "He then introduced A. sp. Papagei as "A. sp. Nanay" in 1999. I corrected this mistaken ID in the BB article. In a later issue of the BB Uwe acknowledged that Papagei, in truth, was not the same species as Melgar's A. sp. Nanay. But for some reason Römer feels that we should continue using "A. sp. Nanay" for the Parrot Apisto, citing prior naming rights. Well, priority in scientific names is an accepted fact, but what does this have to do with common names? We all know how ofen common names are changed. Besides, Melgar was listing his Nanay fish as "A. sp. Nanay" on his web site in 1998, months before Uwe published his article. Personally I do not understand why anyone would want to continue to use a location name (Rio Nanay) for a fish that comes from the Rio Ampiyacu, almost a thousand miles upstream. This only confuses matters."


Here are some references if you are interested in looking into this further:

Koslowski, Ingo. 2000. Neu und selten importierte Apistogramma-Arten (Zwergbuntbarsche aus Peru). Teil 2. DATZ 53(1): 30-35. He was the first to note Römer's confused collecting data.

Romer, Uwe. 2002 (Apr.). First Experience with Apistogramma spec. "Nanay", A Newly-Imported Dwarf Cichlid from Peru. Buntbarsche Bulletin (J. American Cichlid Assn.) Nr. 209. - This is the first introduction of A. sp. Papagei in English (under the name A. spec. Nanay).

Wise, Mike. 2002 (June). Apistogramma sp. "Nanay" or Apistogramma sp. "Parrot/Papagei"? Buntbarsche Bulletin (J. American Cichlid Assn.) Nr. 211. - This article provides a comprehensive history of how the 2 species arrived in the hobby and how they were confused by Römer; includes photos of the species.

Romer, Uwe. 2002 (June). Apistogramma sp. "Nanay" or Apistogramma sp. "Parrot/Papagei"? (response). Buntbarsche Bulletin (J. American Cichlid Assn.) Nr. 211.

Staeck, Werner. 2003. "Cichliden Lexikon - Teil 3; Südamerikanische Zwergbuntbarsche". Dähne Verlag GmbH. Ettlingen. 219 p. (p. 89 - 90 discuss the 2 different species as A. sp. Nanay & A. sp. Papagei)


Now Römer is the only author of dwarf cichlid books that uses "Nanay" for A. sp. Papagei. The Baensch Atlas uses Römer's name because Römer wrote the part on apistos in the Baensch Atlas. The Baensch & Cichlid Atlases are published by the same publisher. If you check with most experienced apisto keepers in German, North America and Asia, almost all use A. sp. Papagei for the fish that Römer continues to call "A. sp. Nanay". Personally, I would be happy if the name "A. sp. Nanay" disappeared completely because it is just too confusing.

 

[jose_vogel]

I know that this question is not about dwarves, but does anybody knows (specially you, Mike) if there is a translation (in english, I mean) of ""Die Buntbarsche Amerikas Band 3".

Thanks in advance

 

[Mike Wise]

Hello from Iquitos! For those who don't know, TomC & I are in the Amazon for 4 weeks of fish collecting. Julio Melgar will be with us for 10 days. Hope to find something interesting.

No, there is no English translation of the entire DBA3 - yet:wink:

 

[Ttw]

Mike
A meal and a cold Pilsen at Mazans on the waterfront is always a treat when in Iquitos.

 

[jose_vogel]

OK, Mike. Thanks for your response and I´ll wait for the :wink:

Enjoy yourselves!

 

[Mike Wise]

Last week we talked to Sergio, who collected with TomC. He said he went back to the exact spot and collected more. Some were shipped to TwoFishGuyz as A. sp. Christoff. I imagine Ryan's fish are the true A. cruzi. You might need to make the water softer & more acidic to get the same colors seen on Tom's specimens.

Sergio is a wealth of collecting information. I now understand why we have such dull colored fish coming into the country as A. sp. Papagei. They are collecting a different population now. It isn't even in the Rio Ampiyacu! Bless his soul, Sergio is sending me home some highly color Papagei (if I can't catch my own).

 

[Microman]

Really nice to hear that these fish are also now in the States. Its a species that we should really do our best to keep in the hobby.
You are quite correct Mike, Very soft water with very low pH does indeed enhance this fishes colouration.
Mark...

 

[K-Pon]

We do not have so easy access to many species in the Poland . Unfortunately :frown:

 

[jose_vogel]

K-pon, if you said that, what´s about my country :frown: