crossing different forms - is it allright to?

[apisto85]

What do u think about crossing forinstance cacatuoides orangeflashes to triple/douple reds or some bitaeniata blue&yellow or agassizii douple/triplered&madeira&santarem forms.

What kind of fish would i get

Not talking about crossing species or anything but is it somehow wrong if i sell thows crosses to other hobbyists

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Apisto85,

It sounds like you are interested in selective breeding as opposed to developing hybrids

I've read that the Triple Red cac was from selective breeding of the wild cac and that the Orange Flash cac was developed from the Triple Red. When my batch of Orange Flash fry matured, about 20% of the males were double & triple reds. The remaining 80% were Orange Flash.

I'm planning to purchase a couple pair of wild caught cacs for fresh genes to breed with my triple red and orange flash cacs. I'm thinking of trying some experiments with cacatuoides genetics myself. My only concern is if I can devote the needed tanks to just cacatuoides.

I read something in Dr. Romers Cichlid Atlas about problems with crossing agassizii from different localities. I can't remember if they were health or compatibility issues. It might have been related to the hatch rates. I'll try to find it later in the cichlid atlas.

Michael

 

[Randall]

Crossing Forms

Dear Apisto85,

It is not known for sure if differing populations of some Apistogramma species are indeed color forms of the same species or separate species that will hybridize in aquaria. A good example is Apistogramma agassizii. Today, the form(s) from the Rio Tefe system is considered a different species (A. sp. cf. agassizii). Before this was accepted, however, the fish was hybridized in aquaria with non-Tefe system forms. Consequently, keeping some of your Apistogramma species separate might not be a bad idea.

As far as I know, A. cacatuoides constitutes but one species. The fanciful little names like "triple red," "orange flash," etc., are aquarium bred color strains of the same species and do not exist in nature.

All the best,

Randall Kohn

 

[apisto85]

Ok so if i do deside to start crossing fish i should keep away from the wild fish(atleast in agassizii)

I was mostlikely goingto gross some kindof wild(or blue) form to a red or orange fish to see if i could come up whit anything interesting

 

[nekomi]

Interesting experiments! Let me know how it goes - I'm considering working with a group of blue cacs and yellow-gold cacs, myself. I think that a yellow and blue cockatoo would make a really beautiful fish. I just wish there was a good source for information on A. cacatuoides genetics (what is dominant, recessive, etc).

Good luck with your fish!

 

[aspen]

i don't know if cacs of different forms are different species, but the triple reds and yg etc have been produced as aquarium strains by selective breeding. i don't see anything wrong with crossing aquarium bred strains of any fish that i can think of. i have 3 different forms (1 m, 3 f) in a tank and plan to breed them to see what i will get. i am pretty much assured that i will get more mixes than i would otherwise, and plan to sell them for what they look like, and when i sell them to hobbiests i will simply tell them what the parents were and let them decide if they want to buy them.

i consider this better than buying a highly selectively bred fish and mating it with a brother or sister, right?

rick

 

[cdawson]

I'm also doing the same thing, I've bred a blue/yellow wild male with a double red fem.and a triple red fem. I'm waiting to see what will come out of it.

I've also got super red male aggasiz waiting for a female. I'm waiting until the vancouver aquarium has their annual auction of the fish they breed to get a female.

 

[depthc]

Well it seems their is quiet a bit of interest in this subject. Im in the same boat as nekomi, i wish there was some more info out there on genes in cactuoides. Ive read Mike Y's article and it does a great job explaining but Id like to know how other forms come to be, such as triple and double reds, along as orange flash.

I will be ordering a trio (2f/1m) of cactuoides from Ray McCaleb after the holidays and have been reading everything i can find on the net and in books but havent found anything to detailed on the different aquarium bred variety of cacatuoides. So im unsure of which varietys i really want to side with and breeding with other varietys to get different outcomes.

Anyways good luck with your apistos.

.dc

 

[cdawson]

The majority of what I read says, the best way is to use a wild specimen for at least one of the sexes. That way you can ensure that the bloodline stays pure or becomes more pure. Less in-breeding these days is always a plus in ornamental fish.

 

[Apistt_ed]

i believe that the crossing of geologically separated/different aggies will result in some abnormalities and deformities in the offspring.. that's what is in Uwe. Romers book. That goes against all the thoughts of what is an aquarium strain though... If I am correct, the Santerem strain was the aggie that is the main contributor of the redgold and double red aggies of today. But to get that much color and sheen in the scales, did it come strictly from the santerem fish? I'm just wondering if anyone can clear this up for me.

I haven't crossed any cacatuoides in some time but have come to notice that if a triple red female is crossed with a male yellow gold, I got about a 70/30 triple red to YG. if I in turn took one of the males of that spawn (triple red male) and re-introduced it to the female and do this process two more times, I'd get a ratio closer to 50/50. These fish would have a whole lot less deformities also. I have gotten some really nasty deformities with re-introducing the YG fishes of the same spawn into the line. I have gotten bent spines, clamped caudal tails, and missing gill plates when I respawn YG offspring into that strain. the original female offspring respawned with the father showed slight deformities but nothing like an all YG spawn (a female respawned with the father and female of that spawn with father and so on was only slightly deformed). I also got offspring that would had problems swimming... they hugged the bottom and couldn't swim correctly. I think this might come just from the YGs as they are iffy and I didn't know where the stock came from. They were just from the lfs. of course it's more complicated then this.. but its an overview of what the general idea... I do have some journals on the spawning but would have to look for them to go deeper into the matter. hope this helps a little...


john

 

[Mike Wise]

If I am correct, the Santerem strain was the aggie that is the main contributor of the redgold and double red aggies of today. But to get that much color and sheen in the scales, did it come strictly from the santerem fish? I'm just wondering if anyone can clear this up for me.


The Santarem form, A. cf. agassizii Broad Black Edge (Santarém) doesn't seem to be the source of the domestic red aggies. The caudal fin patterns are entirely different. These domestic fish originated from wild red A. agassizii from Peru. They were selectively bred to enhance their colors, just like the red forms of A. cacatuoides.