cobalt apisto agassizii = steel-blue

[amanda huggenkiss]

Hi guys. I've been lurking here awhile & reading the articles, but finally decided to register in the hopes that you can help me with something.

I bought a pair of what were labeled "cobalt apisto agassizii", but am unable to find any reference to them. And of the pics I can find, the agassizii closest in appearance would be Tefe (based on the colouring on the face).

This is the male... here and here.

And I'm pretty sure this is a female (you can see how the dorsal fin is more rounded).

You can't really tell from the pics, but the male has a rounded tail, and there's no "V" of colour on it. They are still kinda young -- the male's about 2". At what age/size do apistos show their full colouring & fin development?

Are these even agassizii? Steel blues? The body of the male appears much bluer than any pics of steel blues I've seen. Any ideas what they could be? Also, does that look like a female to you? Or just a juvenile male?

Thanks!

 

[Mike Wise]

cobalt apisto agassizii

Amanda,

You are correct, your "cobalt apisto agassizii" are in fact A. sp. Steel-blue / Blue-head, and all fish pictured are males. They are some of the most colorful Steel-blues that I've seen. If you like them, keep them, but don't expect any fry unless you can find a female resticulosa- or caetei-like species to cross back with your males.

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Thanks Mike!

Are you sure they're both males though? I've been reading through older posts about this species and it sounds like no one's ever seen a pic of a female. Although there's one in this thread -- here, it's kinda hard to tell what her fins look like. She does, however, have the same colouring on her head as the male.

It's a little hard to tell, but in the first two pics the male's dorsal fin is quite long (almost the length of the tail) and tapers to a strong point, while in the third pic you can see the "female's" dorsal is shorter and quite round. Also, when I bought them, the male was just slightly larger, but now he's probably 1.5x the size of the other.

And I know this isn't a good indication, but the male is very interested in the "female".

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Just wanted to post a few new pics so you can get a better idea of how the male and "female" compare.

Here's the male, with his pointed dorsal... here

And here's the female or subdominant male with the rounded dorsal (the nip was already taken out of the tail when I bought it -- this isn't a result of aggression between my two)... here

And here are the two of them together so you can get a better idea of size relationship (they're both pretty crappy pics, but you get the idea)... here and here

The "female" has been showing yellower colouring since I moved the two of them from the 6gallon they were originally housed in, to the 20gallon they're in now.

So if you still think they're both males, could you let me know what criteria you're basing your opinion on? Like I said, I haven't been able to find much information on this species, and next to nothing about females.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out with this.

 

[Mike Wise]

I am the last one to claim that I am infallable. I believe the smaller fish is a submissive male because of at least 2 features: 1) the pectoral fins appear "male-like" in being quite long for a regani-group apiso female, and they do not show a pronounced black leading edge on the fins either; 2) the anal fin is long & pointed like a male's. Blue flank colors in regani-group (resticulosa-complex species in particular) are much more pronounced on dominant males. All subdominant males tend to be less colorful & even take on the pale dirty yellowish color of the juveniles & nonbreeding females. If your pair ever spawn together & get fry, I will be the first to be happy that I am wrong.

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Thanks again Mike!

I see what you're saying about the fin shapes... although in my searching I have seen pics of females with similar fins... then again, those could have been pics of subdominant males that were mislabelled.

I found a couple pics of resticulosas here, and it appears that both the male and female show the dark leading edge. Am I right? Or am I looking at the wrong things? Meanwhile, it seems that neither of mine have the dark leading edge.

I guess I'll just have to wait and see and keep my fingers crossed. Breeding them isn't really that important to me -- it would just be a nice bonus. Either way, I've grown attached to these little guys. I'll be keeping them regardless.

If it turns out it is a female, I'll post an update.

 

[P.W.]

Hi

Please read this old thread about the same subject. The Ap.sp. Steelblue.

http://forum.apistogramma.com/viewtopic.php?t=1932

Mike, are these fishes Steelblue´s? To me they appear to be Steelblue. And in this particular case there are females in the tank, and they have got some fry too.

I have always believed that there were only males on the market. But those pictures makes me really confused. The females have also blue spots on their heads. And they doesn´t look like Caeti females or Resticulosa females to me.

What is your opinion about this, Mike?

Best regards/ Per

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Hey P.W.

I posted that same link upthread. The pics that António posted, right? António, if you read this, any chance you could post a close-up photo of your females?

 

[P.W.]

...feel a bit stupid now
Appearantly I didn´t read your message too careful Amanda. I missed that you linked that thread, Sorry about that!

Anyhow, I agree that it would be very interesting to see some more photos of Antonios Steelblue females.

Best regards/ Per

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Don't feel stupid. I had way too many links up there :roll:

 

[Aquatico]

reply

Man! then steelblues keep looking better and better!

Don

 

[Mike Wise]

The Steel-blue Apisto question is still open. Obviously there are females produced - unless genetics or hormones make this impossible. Females might just be kept from the hobby, like some of the highly colorful dwarf gouramis (Colisa sp.) when they first arrived in the hobby. The Southeast Asian Blue-head (same fish) just might be a domestic bred super colorful form of some wild species, yet I doubt it. It shows features that cross species-complex boundaries. The European Steel-blues obviously are hybrids since, according to Römer, the breeders took wild females of caetei-like fish & bred them to Blue-head males.

If I had the fish, I would be tempted to try to make my own Steel-blues. I would probably start with a cross of A. cf. catei (Turiaçu) with A. cf. resticulosa (Mamoré Blue) & see if any of the offspring were anything like the Steel-blue.

 

[Discus Man]

At Big als they put in an order for borelli and a large shipment of steelblues showed up. Out of about 30 there was a single female, very identifiable as a female and she was ill.

It appears that the females have some sort of genetic weakness and they simply don't survive often.

I have no confirmation of this yet, but to my mind, it sounds more plausible than some conspriacy to not ship females. It also explains why there would be a picture of males and females... someone got a nice female prior to it getting ill.
my 2 cents.

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

I'm going to see if my LFS can find out where these fish came from originally. I'm getting very curious...

One thing I'm finding really interesting is that when I first got these two fish, I housed them in a 6 gallon. It wasn't really big enough for the two of them to stake out their own territory and the dominant male decided it was all his. He alternated between flirting with the "female" and chasing her into the plants. She displayed very submissive behaviour, but showed some bluer colouring.

After moving them into a 20 gallon (they've been in there for about a week now), the male no longer chases her, but pursues her and displays for her. She, meanwhile, is now showing duller/yellower colouring, but is standing her ground more often. I saw her chasing the male a bit yesterday.

I'll definitely keep you all posted if it turns out she is a female, and will definitely post some better pics.

I'd still love to see pics of a confirmed female, though.

At Big als they put in an order for borelli and a large shipment of steelblues showed up. Out of about 30 there was a single female, very identifiable as a female and she was ill.

Of the shipment at my LFS, they were all definitely males except for the one possible female that I got -- and she was looking pretty stressed when I got her. You can see the nip out of her tail and her fins looked a little ratty. I just attributed that to the fact that she was the only girl in a tank full of boys -- far too much attention, poor girl!

 

[cootwarm]

A couple guys from Montreal told me that there were female Steel Blues available there a few years ago and they did comment that the females were very few and they were 'weak'.

George, if you see this, do you know of any clear pictures of Steel Blue females?

Michael

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Well, I finally had a chance to check with my LFS, and they tell me that these fish come from a breeder in Florida.

Also, the only reason they had all males is because they requested all males -- all too often when they have both males and females, only the males get bought because the females look too drab and boring. And then they're stuck with a tank full of females that they have trouble selling.

Anyway, they're going to request at least one female for me on their next order, which should be in next week. I'll definitely post a pic.

 

[observant_imp]

All these came in one batch.
http://www.pbase.com/charriga/apistos
I think the last one is a girl.

 

[P.W.]

I think that this female have nothing to do with the steel blue in that tank.
She looks very much like a Cacatuoides female.

Best regards/ Per

 

[P.W.]

Hi

Any news about the Steelblue females?
Amanda, did you receive any females from your LFS?

Hopefully we can solve the enigma of the steelblue females. Do they exist, or not??

Best regards/ Per

 

[amanda huggenkiss]

Hey PW

Nope, not yet. My LFS hasn't been able to get any steel blues in at all. But they're still on order.

As soon as I know, I'll be posting back here. I've still got my fingers crossed for the one I have. It still hasn't developed any male fin traits (dorsal fin is still definitely rounded) -- can development of fin shape be affected by the presence of a dominant male?