Camallanus.

[beleg]

My A.agassizzi have camallanus infection. Infact most fish my planted tank have the infection as well.. So i have 2 tanks to treat.

I have purchased both Levamisole HCl and Metronidazol to dose the fish and any new comers in future to prevent new infestations.

There are several topics in the forum about Camallanus and use of Levamisol HCl. I have read them all and know that the dosage is like 1.5 mg/l for the tank.
However having lost an agassizzi to an overdose of medicine (which was actually a normal dose but not for a dwarf) i am worried if 1.5 mg/l is too much..

Has anyone ever used 1.5mg/l effectiveley AND safely in agassizzis?

Can metronidazol and Levamisole HCl used together , metronidazol by food soaked in and Levamisole by water treatment?

Can live food (i.e white worms or sterile daphnia) be soaked in Levamisole for a period and given to fish to have curing effect?

Regards

 

[fishgeek]

i have used levamisol in aggasizi with no problems i tend to use 2mgs/l

any medication for internal usage would be better taken orally the problem is just getting it into a feed formula that will then be eaten

i have mixed metronidazol powder with fish oil and coated white worm in this, the fish like the white worm and so usually take it well
some do spit though

if you are certain you have camaalanus then there should be no reason to use metronidazol aswell
what are the fish's belly's like sunken or bloated between meals?
andrew

 

[beleg]

The belly is not really bloated .. a bit sunken. There is 1-2 mm long thin worms coming out of anus which retreat if the fish move. They are red and show in mostly agas,killies and angels. I dont know if my bentosi tetras or ancistrus have them.

 

[beleg]

I used a medicine called Sitraks, made for human consumption. Its small round red pills (yes coated with sugar but i peeled of that level with a hobby knife).

Each pill has Levamisol HCl equal to 40 mg of Levamisole.

It uses Sugar and ponceau4R (the red paint also scraped off)..

I used 3 pills, melted them in a liter of water, i put some 20 or so daphnia for about 5 mins to let them suck the medicine in. then fed them to fish slowly. They consumed a few but only toyed with rest.. The daphnia were white with medicine.

Then i poured the water in the tank. I am aerating the tank at the same time.

However i am surprised to see that the water didnt cloud up at all..It is almost as clear as before..

It's 2 hours since i applied the medicine and the fish seems like something inside bothers them (esp the female). sometimes she scratch her belly to sand. I fed them white worms to let them poop faster.

Usually how long does it take before the medicine kills the worms if the fish bathe in the medicine ?

And once dead worms are pooped out will the fish eat them?

 

[fishgeek]

i find the medication works relatively quickly, within the first 24 hrs

if you wish to use something purgative, or laxative like, to move along the dead worms then epsom salts would be my first choice

be aware that if any carbohydrate or sugar are in the human medication that you may have a bacterial bloom develop in yuor tank, oxygen levels may then suffer and subsequently your fish

direct reinfestation of camallanus is not the typical, so eating worms should not reinfest the adults
nor should eating egg's, there was a paper i read that did suggest that direct transmission was believed to occur when needed to allow the worms to maintain themselves when an intermediate host was not available
at the time of this article it was proposed that this direct transmission could only occur for a limited number if life cycles

arthropod vectors are the intermediate host so prehasp less use of live daphnia would be wise in controlling spread of this problem

i have neevr had any water changes visually evident when using levamisol

i have seen my fish rub their bellys with worm infestation whether being treated or not

hope that is of some help
andrew

 

[beleg]

Thanks Andrew ,
thats a lot of help.

How do you use Epsom salts? I fed them some white worms and frozen artemia adults but never heard of use of Epsom salts for this purpose. I have the epsom salt which looks like a very very light breakfast tea color with big crystals. I use it to supply my plants with enough Mg. I guess its the same thing.

The worms inside the male doesn't come out as of this morning (12 hrs after the treatment) but the female still has them. She hadn't eaten medicine loaded daphnia in large quantity like the male.

My water is 7.3 does this reduce the effect of the medicine (i read this in forum)
When should i re treat if there is no effect?
Should i increase the medication?
Should i make a %100 water change before medicating again?
And should i carbon filter the water?

 

[beleg]

Btw i know this is a very bad picture but this was how the male looked when the worms decided to really come out.

 

[blueblue]

if you are certain you have camaalanus then there should be no reason to use metronidazol aswell
what are the fish's belly's like sunken or bloated between meals?
andrew

Hi andrew: Metronidazol is the standard and safe medicine that we hobbyists in Hong Kong use for treating internal parasites. Do you have some comments on its function/effectiveness when compared to levamisol?

 

[fishgeek]

blue metronidazol does nothing for worm problems
it is an antibiotic with anaerobic and antiprotozoal effects - i assume usage is primarily aimed at treating hex/spironucleus as a protozoan in your case's

with the camallanus infection, and the picture looks stereotypical, then levamisol is my prefered choice of wormer's , primarily because it is what i have used

beleg at least the male photographed doesnt look to sunken

are the fish eating, if so i would be less concerned
if not then prehaps a short term dip at slightly higher concentration may be beneficial, side effects of levamisol are inapetance though at higher dose's, the worm burden i find also puts the fish off their food

i never use carbon in any of my tanks

i am not sure abut the pH claims seen on the internet, my take on them is more that stability of the compound is better in acidic enviroments , but that is just my opinion
i have used levamisol succesfully in neutral tanks

the fact that you are not seeing worms protruding would suggest they are less active(the medication is a paralysing agent) the epsom salts work becasue magnesium is purgative
levels upto 70grams per litre have been suggested for short term dips, i would advise being a lot more cautious intially , especially as the epsom salts will increase the conductivity and hardness of the water and this is not what apisto's like, too much will casue osmotic shock


full water changes are more about removing medications and egg's other life stages of worms , thorough gravel vacumn should be as effective

 

[beleg]

Both fish eat especially if offered live white worms or frozen adult artemia.
Today i will try your trick of fish oil & levamisole coated white worms.


Btw i totally clean the levamisole of sugar (i tasted). The pill is made of 3 layers. Out is the red color , inner part is sugar and the core is the medicine. Its quite easy to peel of the out layers with a hobby knife and the water has not clouded with bacteria. I find out that the Levamisole prepared for injection of animals has many other wormer stuff inside and its much more expensive.

The male harasses the female which makes her unable to eat most time so i might isolate him in a fry net.

Live food also makes the fish poop faster and more , i can give large amounts of frozen artemia adults if that might help.. Both fish like to eat it.

As for Mg ,you recommend short term dips or adding Mg directly to tank?
If dip : How about starting with 30-40 gr of Mg in a liter of solution.. How long should the fish stay there?

If adding to tank how should one proceed? The amounts you suggest are too high to achieve in a tank without disturbing the balance too much i think.

If i am successful here i must move on to my main tank which has an especially bad case , a female killi, whose head is currently bigger than her abdomen . I will separate her and treat her according to suggested amounts while treating the tank as well..

 

[blueblue]

blue metronidazol does nothing for worm problems
it is an antibiotic with anaerobic and antiprotozoal effects - i assume usage is primarily aimed at treating hex/spironucleus as a protozoan in your case's

Thanks andrew and it's surprising to me!!!!!! You know what,
metronidazole is written and sold as a medicine for killing internal
parasites for both animals and men under some brands!!!!!! Now,
you have revealed the true nature of it and i am inclined to
agree with you after a further checking on the web... oh dear...
i have been using it for ALL my apistos and plecos for years... *.*"

 

[beleg]

Here its used mainly by Discus breeders against Hexamita, aka Hole in the head disease..

 

[fishgeek]

blue when i first started visiting internet fish forums the use of the word parasite greatly irritated me
it is the simple misuse of a specific word that leads to problems, parasite has a definition, it seems in aquatic circles this definition has been applied to mean anything other than bacteria fungus or virus , they are however also parasites

i guess that is what occurs when specific or technical languages are simplified for all to use

andrew

in tank treatment of the epsom i wouldn't do anymore than 1-2 grams per litre and dependant on what your water starts at
equally i would satrt for short dip at only 5 grams , if the fish show no stress you can use higher levels

 

[beleg]

The term short dip is quite relative imo. Can you please tell how long.. 1 minutes? 2 ? Sorry for all the stupid questions but this is the only agassizzi pair right now in the whole country and i value them very much.. :tongue:

I usually dip daphnia or bbs in medicated water for 3-4 mins to ensure they get enough medicine inside but not high enough to toxicate the animals.

 

[fishgeek]

sorry i go by feel to some degree on these things, as each situation is different

when i am doing dips i tend to have 2 small containers one with dip water one with tank water
the fish is netted
allowed to calm in the tank water whilst still in the net
the net is then susended over dip container so fish is in treatment for 10 - 30 mintes depending on how fish looks

then at end of time or earliest signs of stress fish is returned to tank water container

does that make sense
andrew

 

[beleg]

Thanks Andrew. That explains a lot.

I came home to see that the female still has live worms inside her while the male seems totally cured eagerly eating whatever offered.

I prepared the oiled worms but female didn't eat them due to stress and kept going up and down in the medicated water (like 5mg/l) I let her stay there like 5 mins and removed her after that although she didn't seem bad.

She is staying in the fry net. I will wait until she calms and will try another batch of worms with medicine..

How long before i should change the tanks water and re-treat? Her case is slightly more difficult since she refuses to eat it seems..

 

[fishgeek]

2mgs/l levamisole bath for 24 hrs
as i mentioned before the medication can casue inappetance and neurological issue's(strange bouyancy or swimming) but i would repeat the in water treatment with her, possibly again separeted from other fish in floating jug or plastic container within main tank.. at least if she passes stuff you can see it this way

i dont change the water and will repeat treatments in 2 weeks usually when not having issue's
the shortest interval i have used(once) was 3 days

the fish that are not eating are generally harder to sort out
if you can get a faecal sample under a microscope you may be able to identify other intestinal parasites

usually mix faeces and saturated salt solution then place cover slip to touch surface mensicus of water egg's and protoza(actually i cant remember which now) one will float and so should stick to slide other sinks and can be seen after taking some sediment and iluting so less particles per visual field.. if that makes any sense to you

 

[beleg]

I have tried 5mg/l for 10 minutes and at least one of the worms seems to have died. It doesn't retreat or move at all.. Just stay at the anus of the fish at an extended position. I know she had 3 worms but the others are not seen for now..

I treated her with 5 g/l Epsom afterwards for 10 mins and she didn't show any stress signs and ate white worms afterwards

The male however was extremely stressed with same solution (suddenly stopped moving like its dead , i directly put it back to other container with tank water and then to tank after a while. It seems to have some white patch on one eye right after the bath .He is eating white worms eagerly but stays at bottom of the tank not moving much.

I just hope the worms pass out normally and the male recovers from the stress..

 

[beleg]

Hello again Andrew,
Following your advice i separated the female to a cup . Will treat her there. Will change water once in 12 hrs to ensure there is nothing toxic to further stress her. I also turned off the lamps ..She will stay there for 24 hrs to see if it helps.. If no i will gradually increase the dosage until it helps..

Do you think this is a good idea?

 

[fishgeek]

as long as the volume of water is enough that you dont quickly deplete oxygen content

open top will allow gas diffusion

i generally float 1-2 litre jugs in top of tank , that way if they jump out it's just back into tank