cacatuoides ladies died.

[MickeM]

Hi Mike+all..

I totaly agree with your info about the beneficial behaviour/safety of fry with their mother/or female caring for them..

This was at first an observation I (and other Apisto-people ) did after several years of spawning different Apistos.. taking the fry from the female
..out of the tank!!
So then I tested these two (most common) options that "we" usually give/can give to the fry growing up...
(since most people don`t strip the tank from everything.. or tend to move the already functioning "family" //female+fry..)
This shall ofcourse not be seen as an experiment at a higher scientific scale!!
As you correctly mention.. for this to be a 100% correct test.. one would have to do it in a lot of different ways.. and follow it up...

However..(if both options includes a guarding female// no female) ..I think the aufwuchs-method+occ. a little xtra is a "better" option than a strict brine shrimp-method only .. in a bare tank..! But that is my personal opinion..
The ultimate method probably is mixing the two methods!! + maintaining OK water quality !!!
The things that often makes a much more rapid growth of fry is the increasing amount of changing water.. + lots of food!!
But then you might get way too overdimensioned fishes as a result of that..(Compare wild/bred "Rams"(?) for example..)

I will also have to add that I did not take the fry out from the tank until they had been free-swimming for 5-6 days ..

/Micke

 

[Karin]

Thank you both for your comments and info!!
By now Lady#1 is in the cave ALL the time. She goes out only and briefly to eat at all speed and goes back to the cave. She is very dark and skinny. Her pelvic fins look yellow. She also gets out like a torpeedo to hit Lady#2 when she passes nearby. Yesterday the male was mostly all the time behind the cave and she went to flap her fins to him (as far as can see as they are under so many moss). Also he hits Lady#2 every now and then. Poor girl...
In case there are eggs/fry...when are they supposed to be visible? When should I gave some BBs?

thank you again, Micke and Mike, .

 

[MickeM]

Hi Karin..

It looks like female#1 is guarding wrigglers...
Her behaviour signal a clear message to all the others..

If you like.. maybe you can feed her(the skinny female..) with some food mixed in a cup of water?? By using a pipette if you have one??

The fry ought to be show up with the female after 7-10 days (from spawning date).. depending on the temperature/ what is the "normal" for A. cacatouides I guess??

And the feeding with brineshrimps is up to you..
Sometimes I think the fry are actually a little too small for brineshrimps.. At least for the first week!
+ the fry may also be easier to spot for predators.. if they swim around with orange/yellow stomachs..
I really don`t think you have to worry.., if the tank is one of the tanks you have posted some pics on ..(In the "Media"-section!)
You can have a look at their stomachs after a day or two..then you will see if these are empty or not....


Cheers,
Micke

 

[Karin]

Hi MickeM!! I think you are right!

Yes, I did that: I fed her on her corner, and the others on the other side of the tank. She really ate! (flakes in the morning and grindal in the afternoon).

The tank is full of plants and oak litter, so as you said, I' ll sit and watch! If I find any problems I'll certainly let you all know and ask for help! By the way, how often should I make water changes? (as usual? (one by week) or more frequently?).

 

[MickeM]

My experience is that a water-change may stimulate to new spawning..
(at least if you have a tank with no circulation/pump... like I had in this example.. a few years ago...)

I once had a couple of A.baenschi with fry in a tank (115 cm in length).. together with Pseudoepiplatys annulatus at the surface..
When I changed "too much" water..(25%) the Apistos went "crazy"..!!
The male "showed-off" like he wanted to spawn again..and the female was tail-flapping him + biting his fins (I guess she just wanted him to guard their area+fry!!)
He continued to "show-off" !!..so she kept on ,.. almost hunting him...
Then he "answered" her speeding aggressivity by mouth-locking her in the gill-cover..!!

This was happening 10-30 minutes after the water-change!!
The batch of fry just dived to the sand and stood still.. while the couple fought for 20-30 minutes..
They were totaly exhausted, "mouth-locking" for a looong time... and then the female went back to the fry..
and the male stood in the opposite side of the tank with broken fins!! But afterwards.. he showed her the usual respect again..!!

Since that happened, I never change a lot of water when Apistos have fry!
I wait until after 2 weeks or so.. and not a large amount at once!!

This may not occure if you have been changing very often (or having another tank set-up!!??) ..and not changing a lot of water..!
This effect may(most probably..) be due to the water-quality-situation..
I did not change very often/regularly when this happened..
If you do that very often...The "quality-changes" in total may not shift the values of the tank-water as much as it probably did in my tank then???

So my advice to you would be to only change a small amount of water anyway!! Just in case...!!

/Micke

 

[Karin]

perfect! Ok!

 

[Karin]

Hi Micke+all
Something wired l is going on in my tank… until today everything looked fine. Lady#1 was still in the cave, just going out to eat, to occasionally slap Lady#2 and flirting with the male. Lady#2 was doing right, just her business. Today, eight days after Lady#1 started her life inside the cave, Lady#2 started flirting with the male and went into the cave#2 which was empty until now.

I saw the wigglers in cave#1 today with the help of a little lantern! I was happy, Lady#1 with fry in one cave and Lady#2 starting to be inside cave#2… but now Lady#1 seems to be moved (with fry???) to Cave#2 and both females are fighting fiercely inside cave#2 and at the entrance of the cave!!! The male is just around!! What happened? Was it me with the lantern who bothered Lady#1 and make her decide to move to cave#2? Just when Lady#1 chooses that cave to move in too???!! I am dying in remorse plus I don’t know what to do… Is this usual?? I don’t recognize them now as they are both dark…should I fish out one of them? Let things resolve all alone?

 

[MickeM]

Hi Karin..

The most common and visable fighting between females that we humans normaly can see.. is when both females are protecting fry..!
Then they are famous for stealing fry from eachother.. but not eating them up!!
The females probably think that these fry are their own,,??,and then continues to protect them as their own!!
And Yes!!, Apistos like to move the wrigglers if they can!!!

Maybe female#1 would have moved her wrigglers anyway??
And most Apistos often prefer caves or space between leafs/roots(in nature??)!!!, so if you only have got two caves..female#1 may think that
her earlier strength to chase female#2 away from cave#1, ought to give her enough advantage to manage control over cave#2 as well..??
Since that cave also belongs to the territory/area of "her" male!!??

Since females with eggs/fry are very confident+persistence in what they are doing, she may have taken for granted that female#2 would just leave this place...
Maybe female#2 have just laid her eggs or gone into "spawning-mode"(higher hormonal activity??) and then is not willing to abandon her plans/"powerposition" to spawn in cave#2!!??(as you are mentioning..) This must then lead to a fight!!!

If female#2 has eggs/fry in cave#2.. the female#1 may (in confusion..) believe that this is her eggs/fry..and then start a real fight to protect them!!??
(and maybe "moving in".. with her own fry!!)
They will probably fight until one of them is giving up!!!
If you want to act..and move one of the females out.., I would move female#2 !!
Because female#1 will probably just adopt+accept any other possible eggs/fry.. since she is already doing a good job with "her" fry !!
If female #2 will be alone with the wrigglers of female#1..she might want to eat them up before she produces some of her own..!!??

When females (already with fry) steals fry from other females.. both of the females have already an area they can "control"..but in small tanks or tanks with few caves and big "open-sight-areas"... it usually ends up with one female having all the fry!! (This is my opinion!!).. But in larger tanks it may work out OK!!??
I once had a group of Apistogramma trifasciata(2-3 males+5-6 females) in a 100x50x40cm-tank totaly bare of sand or plants, but with 8-10 coco-caves+ 2-3 large roots in it!! (As a quarantine-tank!! )
When the first female spawned ..I left all other fishes to still be in the tank..
It all ended with a tank of looots of fishes/youngsters.. All the females spawned in their "private" coco-shell.. in approx-2 weeks !!
They were stealing fry all of the time..but ending up with different ones in the cave every night I guess..??

One question....(Just for my personal "record"/info-collecting/theories)... Did you change any water the day before female#2 started to show interest to spawn???

I hope this info can help you.. but I know the feeling...
You probably want to save all of the fry!! (And both females ofcourse!!)

/Micke

 

[MickeM]

One more thing!!!

If you have one or two roots in another tank(or left over!!)... you can try to put it in between your both caves!!?? (In a careful way!!)
Or try to put more caves in the tank..closer to cave#1..
Maybe then..female#1 will change/give up her plans to go into cave#2 and leave the female#2 in "her" area..alone!!!??

/Micke

 

[Karin]

Hi Micke! Thanks one more time for your amazing answer! Well… things seem to be calm again in the tank. In the end, when lights went off there was one female in each cave, opposite side of the tank. I certainly don´t know where are the wrigglers, but I hope they are with female #1, plus I hope female#2 had spawned?

I was thinking on what you said and it might be that female#1 tried to move her family and found female#2 in the formerly empty cave… now trying to seduce the male too… I was afraid to continue using the lantern to see where the wrigglers are now, so I stopped and let the girls resolve their problems on their own… I am not fishing out any one! I could add then more roots or caves, yes!

BTW no, I didn´t change water the day before (that would have being Wednesday) but on Saturday, just before you said better not to! Anyway female#2 was already kind of yellow by then…

Let’s see how things go on!!!

 

[Karin]

The fry is out with Mum!!! She is gorgeous, big eyes! They kind of dance around her. Eleventh day. Should I pour some infusoria by the cave (I started a culture two days ago)?

Lady#2 is in her cave too.

Are lebistes a danger?

Thanks Micke!!!!

 

[Karin]

Well, I am kind of puzzle right now…I haven’t seen any fry since Wednesday. I don’t know what to think. Is it possible that they are very well hidden? It was difficult to see them. Their mom is not guarding the same spots as much as a few days before, nevertheless she is still fighting the other female, chasing her from some different spots and the male as well. They are all fighting and waving. Or the fry is gone? May be is not a good idea to pour some infusoria into the water? Or have two guppies around? I was trying to set up the artemia stuff… don’t know if it is worthwhile…right now.

 

[gerald]

Once they are free-swimming mom usually stays close by them. If you havent seen any fry in a few days, they probably got eaten. They really dont stay hidden much once they start feeding.

 

[Karin]

Thank you for answering Gerald... You are right, there is no more fry ... I hope there will more luck next time. Fishing out the guppies and probably the other female?

 

[MickeM]

Hi Karin + all..

The flu "took me out of buisness" for more than a week..!!

Sorry to hear about the fry missing...
It`s hard to keep many of them in a community tank..only a few survives..if any...
Sometimes they fry can get stuck/"hoovered" into the filter as well.. ,but most usual is the predatory behaviour of other fishes..

I`m afraid I will have to quote Mike W. !! "A community tank is not a breeding tank"...
Maybe you can save some the next time??.. or catch the other fishes and move them to your 2nd tank for a while???

 

[Karin]

Hi Micke!! Welcome back, I was missing you already... I hope next time there will be more luck. Just the apistos may be... Lets stick to Mike W wisdom!!