Breeding Help Please...

[Apistoman]

I currently have a pair of A.Papagei in a 15 gallon setup. The pH is 6.1 with peat moss filtration and pleanty of leaf litter for tannins and hiding places, I do 30% water changes weekly. Thay are fed daily with eith cichlid pellets and good quality frozen food ranging from daphnia, tubiflex and occasionally blood worms. They have been in the thank for 6 months now and the female just hides away behind the filter because the male is so aggressive, how are they supposed to breed if the female just hides away? Ideas welcome!

Thanks

 

[Mike Wise]

Sadly, this is not uncommon with this species. It might be possible that your tank is large enough to add another small cichlid. It doesn't have to be the same species, just some kind of target fish to keep the male's attention from only being on the female. Just make sure that the target fish can easily hide from the male. I use a piece of floating pipe because harassed fish often hide near the top of the tank. I'd also suggest adding some live food to your mix to get the female in breeding trim.

 

[Apistoman]

What target fish would you suggest?

 

[Mike Wise]

A Bolivian Ram would probably work. It's big enough to handle any abuse, but not especially aggressive. Just remove the male Papagei for a while (an hour or 2) when adding the target fish. It will give the new fish a chance to get acquainted with the tank.

 

[Apistoman]

Okay thanks for the advice but would it not just live a life of hell? What about a pair of rams? or is the tank not big enough? If that and the live food doesnt work then what next?

 

[Mike Wise]

A 15 is too small for 4 fish. I definitely wouldn't add a pair of Bolivian Rams. Other options would be something 1 or 2 medium size and fast top swimming fish (giant danios??).

 

[Borelliiguy]

All due respect to mike here but I disagree with his advice.

Your 15 gal needs to be scaped to create some clear territories and the female given several hiding places/caves that only she can fit into. It has been my observation that when the male learns that his aggression will lead to the female being out of sight they quickly learn to approach the female with some semblance of respect. As in, more displays/flaring less chasing and actual aggression.

6 or 7 small green neons might help also but don't add a ram whatever you do. 15g is simply too small.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Your 15 gal needs to be scaped to create some clear territories and the female given several hiding places/caves that only she can fit into. It has been my observation that when the male learns that his aggression will lead to the female being out of sight they quickly learn to approach the female with some semblance of respect.

It honestly doesn't work like that, you need as much cover as possible, but this is only to break up line of sight. The male is looking for a receptive female, if the female you have is unreceptive he just wants to drive out of his territory as quickly as possible and wait for the next receptive female, he doesn't know there isn't another female about to come along. If she "hangs about" in his territory (the tank) he may eventually kill her, he doesn't know that she can't leave. The floor of the tank is the favoured territory for both male and female and there is nowhere safe for her, but once the female has found the security of the cave near the waters surface she at least gets some respite.

I keep really complex weedy tanks, and I still had the same problem with A. trifasciata.

The male will relentlessly harry any non-receptive females. In that case I got around it by adding more females, but that isn't going to work for A. papagei. Green Neons would be "dithers", but Mike is talking about something slightly different, a "target fish", a fish to diffuse aggression.

I used to use Black Neons as combined dithers and target fish for A. cacatuoides, but that is a much less aggressive fish than A. papagei.

cheers Darrel

 

[Apistoman]

Is live food the onlyway/best way to get her into breeding condition? Once she is in breeding condition will the aggression stop?

cheers

 

[Borelliiguy]

In my experience the trifasciata is the most vicious of all the species. The Tri male is the only male I have kept in tank which has killed the female. His aggression was so ferocious that he'd seemed to be on a kill mission. Which is a shame because of all the species I've kept the tri female was the "prettiest."

I don't subscribe to the tube at the top of the tank thing. Apistos like to be in the lower areas and so far the solution of creating a space that only the female can enter has worked. Once the aggressive male realizes she can remove herself they seem to learn over time. And instead of swimming in attack mode, they instead see the female and flare from a distance and approach slowly.

That has been my experience.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

and so far the solution of creating a space that only the female can enter has worked.

I'm not saying don't do this, it is definitely a good idea.

Once the aggressive male realizes she can remove herself they seem to learn over time.

They honestly don't, behaviour is "hard wired", if the female isn't receptive and he can see her, he will try and drive her away. What happens next depends upon the species, A. cactuoides and A. borelliiare unlikely to kill the female, but more aggressive species may.

The Tri male is the only male I have kept in tank which has killed the female. His aggression was so ferocious that he'd seemed to be on a kill mission.

I would expect this, I'd only attempt to keep them again as a harem with at least 3 females.

And instead of swimming in attack mode, they instead see the female and flare from a distance and approach slowly.

This is the male mating display. If the female is receptive she will come and interact with him.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

I don't subscribe to the tube at the top of the tank thing. Apistos like to be in the lower areas and so far the solution of creating a space that only the female can enter has worked.

The floating tube is there only as a refuge. When the male considers the entire bottom of the tank his territory, any female not ready to breed has nowhere to go except up. Yes, apistos prefer the bottom, but they will stay at the top of the aquarium to get away.

 

[FIL]

Hi,

I also Apistogramma sp. Papagei. I thought I had a pair but not at all, I have 2 males .

It's been 10 months since I raised them in a 50 liter tank. I agree with Mike on the extreme aggressiveness of this species and put a floating tube at the top of the tank to allow the female to hide and rest is a good idea because the dominated are often at the top of the aquarium.
In my tank, the male dominated is small compared to the dominant male but he eats. I notice that since the introduction of Paracheirodons simulans, fish dominated out of hiding more often.

Nicolas

 

[Cooder]

If i may ask,

Are bitaeniata and aggassizii more of the aggressive species or would a single female be acceptable?

On the other hand, would baenschi sp inka 50 work as a trio of 2 females 1 male?

From all i have researched on apistos, i think that Mike and dw1305 are correct, I think you are misreading your males behaviour Borelliiguy

There are also many variables such as male age, health and security. most probably the male sees the female as competition for food, as she isnt ready to breed so is kicking her out, except she cant get out.

Cooder

 

[FIL]

Hi
My expérience :

I don't think that bitaeniata and agasszii be more agressive that the others species of Apistogramma. The conditions of breeding are very important (hiding, tank volume, green neon (dithers), plants, leafs ...).
Each experience is different.

- It is possible to have a single female with male Apistogramma bitaeniata.
- It is preferable to have two female for male Apistogramma agassizii but with only one female it is possible too.
- It is possible to have a single female Apistogramma baenschii (inka) with male. Have two female is dangerous for dominated female.

Nicolas

 

[wethumbs]

I was breeding my Apisto. sp. 'Papagei', Apisto. sp. 'Putomayo', and Apisto. sp. 'Pebas' (in group of 4) in 15 gal species tank without issue. Tank size is not as important as how it is decorated. In some cases, I would have two spawns in the same tank. I use alot of floating plants instead of floating tubes for the unfortunately fish to hide. Just make an effect to target feed these fish instead of just throw the food in the tank.

 

[Cooder]

Thanks for the tips Nicolas, that should help me with the stocking of my latest setup, its a 2ft, about 18 gallons and its more tall than wide so i am going to avoid anything more than a trio

Also any other suggestions for dithers, as neons/cardinals are pretty common and boring....

 

[FIL]

There are Hyphessobrycon amandae, Nannostmus marginatus, Rasbora sp. aff. axelrodia , Aphyocharax rathbuni, Axelrodia riesei, Pristella maxillaris, Trochilocharax ornatus....http://apisto.sites.no/slekt.aspx?gruppeID=2

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Pristella maxillaris

I had a couple of Pristella Tetra for a while (they were "rescue fish") and relentless fry hunters.
Have a look at this thread:
Dither fish - <http://apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/dither-fish.12712/#post-69836>

cheers Darrel

 

[Apistoman]

Wethumbs.... did you successfully breed your papagei?
If so did you have any pronlems and what were the water conditions and food did you dondition them with?

cheers!