Apistogramma sp 'Algodon' ??? Is it Pebas

[ste12000]

Hi, Mike can you confirm this fish please...It was bought as A. sp 'Algodon' obviously i know that name means nothing, they are wild fish and are still quite young..From my id books I am 99% sure they are A.Pebas but would like a confirmation please.
They are proving to be a handful and the female is the most aggressive Apisto i have ever kept, there is no way they are suitable for my usual 18" breeding tanks and have been homed in a 180litre, the female still constantly chases the male and has nipped the dorsal fins of all my corydoras...

Thanks in advance.

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi Steve,

Are these the Algodon that Neil has up at Pier (and have been in for a month or 2)???

If so, my pair below:

When I got them, I have to admit the hope was that they would turn out to be Ap. sp. Papagei, however I'm inclined to agree with you, Ap. sp. Pebas (so the search for Papagei continues!!).

Andrew

 

[ste12000]

Hi Andrew thanks for the confirmation, yes they are from Niel at Pier..He has still got some in..I also picked up a nice pair of A.Borelli and A.Nijsseni, the female Nijsseni is looking really rough at the minute and i think i will lose her..They do have more though so i will be able to pick up a replacement..

When you say A, sp 'Papagei' I asume you are refering to A.sp 'Nanay'?? or have they been seperated into seperate species since Cichlid atlas 2 ?? A, sp 'Papagei' is one species i am not familiar with..

I was hoping they would be 'Nanay' but i am very happy with A.sp 'Pebas' in my tank...Especially looking at some pictures of adult males on the net, they are a good looking species..

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi Steve,

Don't let Mike (Wise) hear you using 'Nanay' when referring to Papagei :wink:

Ap. sp. Papagei, also goes under the name Algodon II (A 91/92). To quote for the Datz book:

This form was introduced by Romer as A. sp. Nanay. Since that species is a different fish (A82) and the Papagei Apistogramma is not reported from the Nanay, the usage of this vexing name should be stopped.

I first kept Papagei (Parrot) some 7 or 8 years back, the combination of colours on mature males is just stunning. It's one of the Apisto's on my wish list since the fish house was set up a few years back, one day....

Andrew

 

[ste12000]

Cheers for that, so Romer was mistaken in his book??

I dont have the Datz book so that is one for my list..I use the two Atlases by Romer and the Aqualog..I suppose there have been numerous developments since these were published..

 

[a.d.wood]

Cheers for that, so Romer was mistaken in his book??....

Some might suggest that he's wrong, but Uwe has chosen that name for Ap. sp. Pagagei (A91/92) and continues to use it in his books (ignoring the fact it is already in use for A82).

You'll find Ap. sp. Nanay (A82) in Uwe's book under its alternative name, Ap sp. Melgar.

You'll find the Datz book a boon, especially as I've used the 'A' numbers above to clarify the naming!!!

Andrew

 

[ste12000]

Right... so now i am confused..So what Romer calls sp'Nanay' on page 962 is really Ap. sp. Pagagei..

And the real 'Nanay' is called sp 'Melgar' in Romers book p934 ?? is there a fish called sp 'Nanay' at all??

I hope that makes sense..

 

[a.d.wood]

Ah, you think you're confused now.....

Essentially it splits into 2 camps, Romer in 1 camp and the rest of us in the other.

What we all know as Ap. sp. Papagei (A91/92), Romer insists on calling Ap. sp. Nanay

and;

What we all know as Ap. sp. Nanay (A82), Romer insists on calling Ap. sp. Melgar.

Know, given that the distribution of A82 includes the Rio Nanay, to me it makes sense to use the name Ap. sp. Nanay (until a full description and scientific name is prepared). Turning attention to A91/92, distribution includes the Rio Ampiyacu system, miles away from the Rio Nanay (not just a few, many!!) so it doesn't make any sense to name the fish after a river it has nothing to do with...

Andrew

 

[ste12000]

Right thanks for clearing that up I think i get it, so i am also looking for A sp 'Papagei ' which i thought was 'Nanay' and was one of the fish on my hitlist.....Jesus this is getting harder by the minute..

 

[Mike Wise]

Thanks to everyone for explaining the mess with Nanay/Melgar & Papagei. He still refuses to go along with other authors by using "Papagei" for the Ampiyacu species and "Nanay" for the Río Nanay species. Römer & I had a "conversation" about this subject in the "Buntbarsche Bulletin". It basically ended up with him admitting he was mistaken about the collecting locality, but claiming his name is not wrong. Why? Because he named it "Nanay" first! This is illogical. It is not a scientific species name, which cannot be changed. Common names can and are changed often. Besides "A. sp. Nanay" actually was used as a trade by Melgar before Uwe used the name in his article. I am afraid that he is just too proud to admit he makes mistakes. Sad. This is why - contrary to all other authors - he lists A. sp. Mikschofski for the species that is actually A. pulchra. He also won't admit that the fish he claims to be A. pulchra in CA1 is actually A. sp. Erdfresser/Earth-eater. There are other species that are (and some that probably are) misidentified or given different names in both volumes for the same reason. The Aqualog book (SAC II) is now rather old and about 10 - 15% of the pictures are mis-identified. I strongly recommend the DATZ book (and not because I helped with its content:tongue. It is accurate.

Now, for your fish: the good news is that you appear to have A. sp. Papagei. The bad news is that you have the less colorful A92 form. See: http://cichlidae.com/gallery.php?genus=Apistogramma (under A. sp. Papagei) to read how to distinguish the 3 closely related species - A. sp. Pebas, A. sp. Papagei, & A. sp. Putumayo. All of these species have arrived in the trade under then name A. sp. Algodon.

 

[Rolo]

Hi Mike,

Now, for your fish: the good news is that you appear to have A. sp. Papagei. The bad news is that you have the less colorful A92 form.

Are you sure?
I just range between A. sp. Pebas and A. sp. Putumayo, but NOT A. sp. Papagei. I tend more to A. sp Pebas.

Why do you think, it's Papagei?

The female has 5 spots in breeding dress, the caudal spot is too small (similar to Papagei, but also seen in this shape at Pebas)

The red coluration is below the lateral band and the caudal fin seems to be spotted. I've never seen that at Papagei, only at Pebas.

The lateral stripes are well visible, this suggest Papagei, but also Putumayo. I don't know, if Pebas forms also show such lateral stripes?

So, all in all, it makes me think of A. sp. Pebas in both cases (ste12000 & Andrew)

regards,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

I am not sure that the photos of the females show them when they have eggs or fry. If not, females often show a complete set of flank spots even in an aggressive mood. If they do have eggs or fry, the these females definitely are not A. sp. Papagei.

I based my identification on the shape of the caudal patch (caudal spot + dark part of Bar 7). On Papagei they are about even in height. On Pebas the Bar 7 part of the patch is not as high as the caudal spot. I usually don't look at colors on such polychromatic species. On Putumayo the caudal spot is clearly separate from the Bar 7 flank spot.

Now, I am never positively positive () in my identifications of these species(?) because there is too much gradation between the forms. We cannot even be certain that all of the commecially imported fish are from the same location. To me the females look most like Papagei and the males look more like like Papagei (Caudal-fleck), A 92.

 

[ste12000]

Thanks, Andrew, mike and Rolo for your hard work!!!

Mike my pictures show the females without fry.. I have owned the pair for about three weeks and apart from a few displays i have seen no signs of breeding.. Both Andrews and mine are bought from the same tank in the same shop and in theory should be from the same collection..I can enquire with Neil the owner and find out where they were Bought/shipped from if that helps?

 

[Troglodyte]

Andrew, just for your information on Ap sp Pebas, I found Pebas to be a very aggressive fish both male and female. I had three females and two males to a four foot tank hoping to get them to split up to each end with at least one female each but the dominant male pursued the second male continuously.:frown: I removed him for his own safety. Then the male picked a female and settled in one end of the tank but both pursued the remaining females to a few inches of the other end. Once the dominant female laid eggs and was otherwise engaged, the male partnered up with another female and both proceeded to chase the third female almost to her death. Once the dominant female was out clutch care she harrassed the second female to her near demise with the male.
All of the Apisto Pebas took healthy bites out of the corydoras in the tank especially from the dorsal fins. It almost appeared to be out of malice rather than protection of their territory, as the fish were at the other end of the tank. So if they have a similar nature you may need to keep a sharp eye on them. Good luck.

 

[ste12000]

I am not sure that the photos of the females show them when they have eggs or fry. If not, females often show a complete set of flank spots even in an aggressive mood. If they do have eggs or fry, the these females definitely are not A. sp. Papagei.

I based my identification on the shape of the caudal patch (caudal spot + dark part of Bar 7). On Papagei they are about even in height. On Pebas the Bar 7 part of the patch is not as high as the caudal spot. I usually don't look at colors on such polychromatic species. On Putumayo the caudal spot is clearly separate from the Bar 7 flank spot.

Now, I am never positively positive () in my identifications of these species(?) because there is too much gradation between the forms. We cannot even be certain that all of the commecially imported fish are from the same location. To me the females look most like Papagei and the males look more like like Papagei (Caudal-fleck), A 92.

Just to drag an old thread back into the limelight..After numerous failed attempts my pair of Apistogramma have finally managed some fry!! The females brood care markings are now 100% consistant with A. sp 'Pebas' and im glad to finally clear it up..I hate owning fish witha question mark over their identity..Thanks again for your help guys...