Apistogramma identification for TCMontium

[TCMontium]

Hello Apisto lovers, likers, interesters and so on. I am a very new member on this forum, but not really new on apisto subject. Also, I didn't want the title to be just "Apistogramma identification". I'm not a narcissist.

I bought this pair 3 days ago from a pet shop under the name Apistogramma mortenthaleri, but that is not a real species at all. I read that the commercial name A. mortenthaleri can be Apistogramma martini or Apistogramma pantalone, but these fish don't resemble the two species either. What are these? From macmasteri-group or regani-group maybe?

Here is the male:

The female:

Male and female stress color-pattern change after a small "dance of dominance":

 

[gerald]

They look like one of the A. eunotus complex, something similar to Pebas, Papagei, Algodon, etc. Beautiful bold pattern.

 

[TCMontium]

They look like one of the A. eunotus complex, something similar to Pebas, Papagei, Algodon, etc. Beautiful bold pattern.

Thanks! I guess Pebas and actually some of the Algodon on google images looks like my male. Maybe he needs to grow his fins and develop his color a bit more to be identified easier.

 

[Mike Wise]

Strange markings; they seem exagerated. Maybe domestic bred? Anyway they appear to be A. ortegai (= A. sp. Papagei) or an ortegai/cf. ortegai (Pebas) cross.

 

[TCMontium]

Strange markings; they seem exagerated. Maybe domestic bred? Anyway they appear to be A. ortegai (= A. sp. Papagei) or an ortegai/cf. ortegai (Pebas) cross.

Thank you! I think the male resembles a lot to some "Pebas" examples, but not that much to A. ortegai since he doesn't have any reddish colors on his fins or body. Though, I am yet just an apprentice with Apistos and never certain with my own identification.
It would be unfortunate if they are crosses. I don't support cross-breeding and mutation-breeding (albino, baloon, longfin etc.). Also, they were from an export of 15 apisto species and several more south american species. I think such an export would be from south america directly, which mean F0 or F1/F2 wild specimens? No cross-breeds?

Here is some better photos as the male kinda flares up to his reflection on at the mirror :

 

[gerald]

I dont know if ortegai and "Pebas" normally occur together in nature (I'll bet Mike or Frank knows) but wild hybrids do occur sometimes. Also, collectors sometimes transplant fish to their local streams to create a more accessible source, which could result in wild hybrids.

 

[Mike Wise]

Better photos of your female would be helpful. BTW, color isn't typically important for apisto identification.

Gerald is right about transplants. The type locality for A. ortegai has both ortegai and cf. ortegai (Pebas). Until a few years ago this location only had Pebas. This is why the holotype species is the same as A. sp. Papagei, but many of the paratypes are A. sp. Pebas. Unpublished genetics results have shown this to be true. My guess is that any ortegai-like species collected from this location - much nearer to Pebas than other collecting localities that are in a much more dangerous cocaine producing region - have some chance of being crosses.

 

[TCMontium]

I won't be at home for a week. I can take and share better photos of the female next week, hopefully.
Thanks again, for the information on species and collectors.

 

[TCMontium]

Here is the female as she guards her coconut cave area. What kind of cf. ortegai or ortegai are they?

 

[Mike Wise]

Female shows the brood dress of A. cf. ortegai (Pebas). A. ortegai females show only 2 lateral spot in brood dress.

 

[TCMontium]

Female shows the brood dress of A. cf. ortegai (Pebas). A. ortegai females show only 2 lateral spot in brood dress.

I found her babies just after sharing these photos, so she really is in her brood dress. They are A. cf. ortegai (Pebas) then.
Thank you! Now I have to grow some babies.

 

[Mike Wise]

At least the female is. The male? I'd need to see the dark markings on the body - especially the shape of the caudal spot - to be sure, but probably is Pebas.

 

[TCMontium]

At least the female is. The male? I'd need to see the dark markings on the body - especially the shape of the caudal spot - to be sure, but probably is Pebas.

The male doesn't show his markings clearly. I can't take a better shot than the ones in the earlier posts. I will share more if he shows his markings more clearly.

 

[Mike Wise]

The best way to photograph the stress dark markings on a male like yours is to catch it in a net against the glass. That will stress him!