apistogramma cacatuoides mouth deformity?

[antk]

Hi folks,

Just entering the world of apistogrammas. Did a bunch of research for few months, got a tank set up and let it sit for another few months, finally acquired my first pair of a. cacatuoides and I think something is off with the male. I know that males have larger mouths than females, but the male I have has a very pronounced mouth. Please see attached photos and videos. Any thoughts or input? If it is indeed a deformity, I will not attempt to breed and just give it a nice place to live.

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[MacZ]

While slack-jaws are common, this is within the range for domestic A. cacatuoides. The fish doesn't look good overall, though. Definitely a result of massproducing fish farms. No breeding material. Neither will be any other fish delivered from that batch, because they will have the same genetics.

 

[antk]

While slack-jaws are common, this is within the range for domestic A. cacatuoides. The fish doesn't look good overall, though. Definitely a result of massproducing fish farms. No breeding material. Neither will be any other fish delivered from that batch, because they will have the same genetics.

Thanks for your response. Could you please elaborate a bit more on why he doesn’t look good overall? I understand that he is not breeding stock, but do you also mean general health?

 

[MacZ]

The fish looks like it has had some nutritional issues during growout, the ratio of eye and mouth size to body size and the way the fins have grown gives it a slightly "runt-y" demeanor.

 

[antk]

Thank you so much for providing your expertise. Knowing this, I will keep this pair I have now strictly for the sake of fish-keeping.

For the future, would you be able to reference some photos of the ideal specimen? Also, do you have some sites you recommend for acquiring the ideal standard?

Thanks again!

 

[anewbie]

This shows the picture of a wild caught specimen (there are different catch location with different looks or colours) - the point of this picture is to look at the profile of the fish. You can search for other pictures of wild caught specimen to view their body shape. The domestic will have more in your eye colors (mostly red for cockatoo); but some wc specimen can be spectacular in their own subtle colouring. However they are less likely to do well in hard or moderate hard water than domestics:

Wild Apistogramma cacatuoides (Apistogramma cacatuiodes)

One of the most popular dwarf cichlids in the hobby, Apistgramma cacatuoides (also known as the Cockatoo Dwarf Cichlid) is an attractive and interesting addition to smaller community aquarium. They have been bred in the hobby for decades, resulting in a number of color morphs and strains. A...

www.aqua-imports.com

Another place to view wild caught specimen is here:

Welcome to Toms Homepage

(click on "tom" above line to view picture); kind of wish this sight highlighted links

Also be aware that the colour of the fish will change dependent on if the substrate is light or dark; this is more true with wc fishes than domestic but some domestic will also show a wide range of shift based off of substrate colouring.

 

[Ben Rhau]

For the future, would you be able to reference some photos of the ideal specimen? Also, do you have some sites you recommend for acquiring the ideal standard?

It depends on your goals, since "ideal" is subjective based on the keeper. The wild forms are healthier and in my opinion more beautiful. However, most buyers are looking for strong colors, and therefore the domestic strains are much easier to sell.

 

[Garavar]

While slack-jaws are common, this is within the range for domestic A. cacatuoides. The fish doesn't look good overall, though. Definitely a result of massproducing fish farms. No breeding material. Neither will be any other fish delivered from that batch, because they will have the same genetics.

Does this only happen with the cacatuiodes? Or are all commercially available apistos effected? Ie Hongsloi, Macmasteri, Borelli etc.?

 

[Ben Rhau]

Here's an example of a particularly striking wild caught cacatuoides:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3776869159018124&id=469544756417264

 

[anewbie]

Does this only happen with the cacatuiodes? Or are all commercially available apistos effected? Ie Hongsloi, Macmasteri, Borelli etc.?

More so with cacatouiodes than the other species but it can happen with others. I've not seen any borelli with such level of deformity. I know macs have been heavily bred for different colour forms but haven't observed enough of them to comment. Also be aware that cockatoo are earth diggers and have a shovel mouth to begin with and iwth the interbreeding to get particular colour strains it is a more obvious deformity to developed.

Last be least @MacZ suggested part of the deformity was due to farm raising and poor diet - this of course can happen with any fish after all these farms are not about fish health but rather about maximizing profit. You are generally better off purchasing from hobbist breeders and for popular species there are quite a few.

 

[antk]

Here's an example of a particularly striking wild caught cacatuoides:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3776869159018124&id=469544756417264

oh wow yeah, that's a beauty!

 

[antk]

thanks everyone for the discussion and feedback. really appreciate you all sharing your experiences. the fish i got is funky, but i think it's just the right amount of funky to be my new profile pic

 

[Garavar]

More so with cacatouiodes than the other species but it can happen with others. I've not seen any borelli with such level of deformity. I know macs have been heavily bred for different colour forms but haven't observed enough of them to comment. Also be aware that cockatoo are earth diggers and have a shovel mouth to begin with and iwth the interbreeding to get particular colour strains it is a more obvious deformity to developed.

Last be least @MacZ suggested part of the deformity was due to farm raising and poor diet - this of course can happen with any fish after all these farms are not about fish health but rather about maximizing profit. You are generally better off purchasing from hobbist breeders and for popular species there are quite a few.

Interesting but aren't Borelli breed for the colors? Or they naturally that color?

 

[MacZ]

Does this only happen with the cacatuiodes? Or are all commercially available apistos effected? Ie Hongsloi, Macmasteri, Borelli etc.?

A. borellii is the outlier, they have not really been bred for colour enhancement and I know of no stable domestic colour variant.

Worst are A. cacatuoides and A. macmasteri, A. hongsloi is also mostly availabe in colour variants. There are some domestic breeds of A. agassizii, too. You can put 99% of available Mikrogeophagus ramirezi on the list as well. Same thing.

The domestic fish of these species have replaced their wild or wild form conspecifics in the hobby almost completely. You do get them, but they are niche (well... to most hobbyists, but not to the people on this very forum.).

 

[MacZ]

For the future, would you be able to reference some photos of the ideal specimen? Also, do you have some sites you recommend for acquiring the ideal standard?

While I am knowledgable about the domestic fish, at the same time I detest them to the bone. My ideal for them: Let the domestic breeds go extinct and go back to natural forms. But as humans always tend to make pets look more to their taste, it will just start over again and in 10-20 years we're back at the current situation.

 

[Garavar]

A. borellii is the outlier, they have not really been bred for colour enhancement and I know of no stable domestic colour variant.

Worst are A. cacatuoides and A. macmasteri, A. hongsloi is also mostly availabe in colour variants. There are some domestic breeds of A. agassizii, too. You can put 99% of available Mikrogeophagus ramirezi on the list as well. Same thing.

The domestic fish of these species have replaced their wild or wild form conspecifics in the hobby almost completely. You do get them, but they are niche (well... to most hobbyists, but not to the people on this very forum.).

Interesting and informative. I always thought Hongsloi and Macmasteri didn't get imbred like crazy while Borrelli did. I was way off

 

[MacZ]

Not saying A. borellii aren't copy-pasted (still bad for the genetics) commercially as well, but there are no colour breeds of them.

 

[Ben Rhau]

For borellii, I have seen a lot of inbreeding in the "Bella union" lineage. Since that catch location has been inaccessible for some time, there were some hobbyists trying to preserve the line. But there wasn't enough coordination to maintain genetic diversity, so the last ones I saw for sale were pretty deformed.

Consistent with what Mac said, these were wild type. No color strains were intentionally created for that species, to my knowledge. Different phenotypes have been marketed as "blue," "yellow head," and "opal," but these are all wild forms.

 

[antk]

While I am knowledgable about the domestic fish, at the same time I detest them to the bone. My ideal for them: Let the domestic breeds go extinct and go back to natural forms. But as humans always tend to make pets look more to their taste, it will just start over again and in 10-20 years we're back at the current situation.

I appreciate this opinion. I thought that the current images of cacatuoides on the internet were somewhat natural. But I guess I was comparing the current color varieties against the very exaggerated colors of glo-fish and glo-angels.

I’m interested now in finding some wild caught specimens, but I’m concerned about weaning to dry food or even keeping water parameters correct for them.

Either way you all have given me food for thought and I appreciate the comments.

 

[MacZ]

glo-angels.

They have those now!? Yuck...

but I’m concerned about weaning to dry food or even keeping water parameters correct for them.

The food is not the problem. Most can easily be accustomed to dry foods. The water is not as difficult as many think. Takes a small investment in equipment (RO unit) in many cases, but after that it's plug & play.