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Apistogramma behavior

deadwood04

New Member
Messages
17
Hello all, I appear to have an issue in my 40 gallon breeder. I have a male A. cacatuoides, male A. trifasciata, and a Bolivian Ram with 12 neon tetras. It seems like the A. cacatuoides has claimed the entire tank as his territory. He will chase the Bolivian around but is much worse toward the A. trifasciata. There are many caves/hidey holes, plants, and rocks to break up sight lines and define territories. I've literally watched the cacatuoides swim all the way across the tank to root around in the rock crevasses to chase out the trifasciata.

What, if anything, should I be doing to stop this? Should I just set up a new tank and move the cacatuoides into it? If so would planted 10 gallons be big enough? I don't really want to surrender/rehome him but something needs to happen.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,202
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Without seeing your 40 I cannot say what the problem is. My guess is that it is too open. If the fish can see each other then problems like yours often occur. One thing I will say is that A. cacatuoides and A. trifasciata are similar looking, which often leads to inter-species aggression. Also both, being highly polygamous, try to establish as large of a territory as possible.
 

deadwood04

New Member
Messages
17
Without seeing your 40 I cannot say what the problem is. My guess is that it is too open. If the fish can see each other then problems like yours often occur. One thing I will say is that A. cacatuoides and A. trifasciata are similar looking, which often leads to inter-species aggression. Also both, being highly polygamous, try to establish as large of a territory as possible.
Thanks for the response. While I don't think that my tank is too open, it would appear that the behavior of the fish would suggest otherwise. I am going to be redoing some of the aquascape. Do you have, or could you point me to, any resources/examples of what I should be doing (like pictures etc)?

I understand in theory when people say break up sight lines and add defined territories, but I find it a little vague without some sort of picture or more concrete definition of what would look like.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
I understand in theory when people say break up sight lines and add defined territories, but I find it a little vague without some sort of picture or more concrete definition of what would look like.
One way to think about it is that, if a fish is in one territory, it cannot see into other territories while in the bottom 1/3 of the tank. Having more structure only helps, though, since they do sometimes venture higher in the water column.
 

deadwood04

New Member
Messages
17
One way to think about it is that, if a fish is in one territory, it cannot see into other territories while in the bottom 1/3 of the tank. Having more structure only helps, though, since they do sometimes venture higher in the water column.
So I've always had area in the front of the tank for swimming with caves etc toward the back-ish. Should I be putting hardscape/structure from the front glass to the back glass (wall to wall so to speak)? I'll include a picture of my current setup. As I'm attaching this picture I can see it's more open than I thought.

tempImagefM47j9.jpg
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
Yeah, your current scape looks like one big territory to me, though there might be more going on in the back or middle that I can't see. Rearranging would help a lot.

Should I be putting hardscape/structure from the front glass to the back glass (wall to wall so to speak)?
There will be at least one spot that touches the front of the glass, but other borders can touch the scape and not always the glass, if that makes sense. You can still orient the caves so that you can see them, but the caves themselves are not territories. Also, make sure the cave openings don't face each other, as those two on the left do.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
That's definitely better than it was, and thoughtful to making clear territories. if I were to nitpick, I'd say the barrier on the left side from back to front is a bit more porous than the one on the right (when facing the tank).

In general, my apisto tanks tend to be smaller (10 - 20 gals) so I'm accustomed to much more of the tank volume being taken up by structure, roughly 50% more hardscape relative to tank volume and maybe 2-3x the plants, including floating plants. Do you have any surface floaters? The tank looks pretty bright, but it might just be the camera exposure.
 

yukondog

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
664
Location
N.W. Fl.
In my 40 and 50 longs I use slate from front to back about 6-8'' high with plenty of plant and caves in each section.
 

deadwood04

New Member
Messages
17
That's definitely better than it was, and thoughtful to making clear territories. if I were to nitpick, I'd say the barrier on the left side from back to front is a bit more porous than the one on the right (when facing the tank).

In general, my apisto tanks tend to be smaller (10 - 20 gals) so I'm accustomed to much more of the tank volume being taken up by structure, roughly 50% more hardscape relative to tank volume and maybe 2-3x the plants, including floating plants. Do you have any surface floaters? The tank looks pretty bright, but it might just be the camera exposure.
The camera does make the tank lighter than it is.

No I don't have surface floaters. Dealt with duckweed and that kind of put me off surface plants.

The barrier on the left side is more solid than it looks, but I am going to the LFS tomorrow to get a piece of driftwood and maybe a rock or two for that left side. I'll also look at adding a java moss covered coconut hut and some plants (although I have a quartz sand substrate so I don't really know what will grow in it).

Edit: Evidently I have to get fish food as well. My dog literally ate the bottle.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
No I don't have surface floaters. Dealt with duckweed and that kind of put me off surface plants.
Duckweed is literally the worst one, because it gets everywhere and you can’t separate the dead plants from the good ones. It also doesn’t like acidic water. There are many threads on this site extolling the virtues of floating plants, so I won’t repeat those here. However, if you’re willing to give different plants a try, I’d recommend Amazon frogbit and Salvinia natans. They have bigger leaves and are much easier to manage.
The barrier on the left side is more solid than it looks, but I am going to the LFS tomorrow to get a piece of driftwood and maybe a rock or two for that left side. I'll also look at adding a java moss covered coconut hut and some plants (although I have a quartz sand substrate so I don't really know what will grow in it).
Java moss and java fern both grow really well and are also useful for structure. In addition to surface floaters, I
almost exclusively grow epiphytes, so nothing rooted in the substrate (except sometimes crypts).
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,365
Duckweed is literally the worst one, because it gets everywhere and you can’t separate the dead plants from the good ones. It also doesn’t like acidic water. There are many threads on this site extolling the virtues of floating plants, so I won’t repeat those here. However, if you’re willing to give different plants a try, I’d recommend Amazon frogbit and Salvinia natans. They have bigger leaves and are much easier to manage.

Java moss and java fern both grow really well and are also useful for structure. In addition to surface floaters, I
almost exclusively grow epiphytes, so nothing rooted in the substrate (except sometimes crypts).
One huge negative of duckweed you should be aware of is that once established it can be very difficult to remove from a tank. It might seems simple enough to remove all visible pieces but frequently small bits remain and a few weeks later you have to start over trying to remove it. So if you were to try it for fun just be aware removal can be a bit painful.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Is this more along the lines of what you are talking about with territories and breaking up sight lines?
You still <"need more structure">, it will also make the tank less bright. I mainly use plants and wood, but you can also use <"structural leaf litter">, you literally can't have too much.
Could I see a picture of what you are talking about?
dicrossus_clup1_resize-1-jpg.43731

No I don't have surface floaters. Dealt with duckweed and that kind of put me off surface plants.
Duckweed is a pita, but a floating plant is really useful for diffusing light, giving you a visual indication of plant health and <"removing extra nutrients">. I really can't <"recommend them enough">.

cheers Darrel
 

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