Advice Regarding WC Apistos and Dithers.

[Cooder]

Hey guys,

This is my second go at a planted apisto tank, the first one i had A.agassizii, but the female got caught in a flower pot and died,
So this is my second attempt, and its going not too bad so far.
Here is a pic of my tank, sorry its still a bit clowdy after i removed alot of the sand ontop of the aquasoil amazonia II, and its not fully grown in yet. its a 2ft about 20 gal

I just got some tetras today, 7 red eyes and 8 neons,

I was wondering if anyone thought that red eyes could be too boisterous for apistos?

Also, some Wild Caught Peruvian A. Bitaeniata are coming out of quarantine tomorrow, so those are the fish i want to stock, a pair or trio. what would you think would be most i could keep for these guys? pair or trio?
I will have to ask the supplier what she feeds them, but how hard do you think they will be to wean onto pellets/flake?
I do have some frozen blood worm, plan to hatch bbs and am going to collect some mosquitoe larvae for live stuff.

Also, these are advertised as WC Peruvian A. bitaeniata blue or yellow are available, these must be colour strains or something,
What locations are probably the most well known for these colour variants, if you know Mike?

Thanks,

Cody

 

[slimbolen99]

Your tank looks great, and will look even better when the plants have grown in a bit. If you are getting juveniles, a trio will be OK for a while, but you'll probably want to add a lot more cover (plants filling in, more driftwood, especially some up towards the top of the tank to give shelter to a battered female, maybe some oak leaves, etc). In the long term, you'll probably end up with a really nice pair.

Can't answer about the red-eyes; never had them with apistos. Cardinals should work ok.

 

[Mike Wise]

Again, what kind of aquarium do you want; a community tank or a breeding tank? For a community tank (with little hope for raising offspring), then the tank is fine. I would add a couple of male apistos (no females) because they are more colorful than females. They will display for each other, normally without harm, if the tank is properly decorated with visible territorial boundaries. If you really want to breed and raise some fry, then I suggest that you remove all of the tetras. There is little chance that a single female can keep so many fry predators from decimating her school of fry. Instead, I recommend adding 2-3 pencilfish as dither/target fish. A suitably decorated 20H (24x12x16"/60x30x40cm) aquarium should be able to handle a trio of A. bitaeniata. Just make certain that each fish - females and male - has it own territory.

As for wild-caught apistos and food, yes most will eventually take prepared foods. It will take some time and you probably won't see them eat it as eagerly as other fish. Mine will mouth it and then spit it out. I imagine that some of the food is sifted out of the sand by the apistos later. IMHO, live/frozen foods are the way to go.

Blue and yellow are not strains or populations. They're simply color descriptions. Choose the color you like. Good luck!

 

[Cooder]

Thanks for the advice guys, i did want them for a little bit of both, but it turns out i wont be able to do that? Ill have to figure out what to do with them next... i think ive got something for them, just not quite yet, thats going to be a pain....

The only food that i have at the moment is frozen bloodworms and NLS pellets, but ive put out some water for the mozzies to lay in, so hopefully in the next week i should have some larvae. will have to order some bbs or mysis or something.

You cant see them in the photo, which is what i was after, but there is 3 black plastic flower pot artificial caves, one on the left, one underneath the driftwood closest to the middle, and one down the far right back corner, lets hope the male and dominant female take the caves towards the right and the other female can shelter in the cave on the left. As you notice they are fairly well hidden so i think they should like them.

something i forgot to ask in my last post.

Would WC apistos be fine in 6.0 or under? my test kits minimum is 6.0, so if i keep it at that, then they should be fine right? the water i am using comes out of the tap at that minimum....

Thanks again for the advice,

Cody

PS: On second thoughts, it will be too much of a pain to remove all the tetras, so i will leave them their for now and if they cause trouble in the long run (which i strongly suspect) then i will remove them. they should work fine for dithers when i introduce the apistos, they will probably be very shy for the first week or so. im also worried about the competition for food the tetras make, the red eyes especially seem to be really quick and keen on the food, ill have to target feed....

 

[Apistomaster]

I second Mike's suggestions about deciding whether this is a community tank or breeding tank.
My favorite dither fish are one of these two species of Pencilfish; Nannostomus eques or N. marginatus.
They are fairly common and always peaceful. I avoid the most commonly available Pencilfish, N. beckfordi because as Pencilfish go they can be rather good fry predators. Marble Hatchetfish are another good one but they can be difficult to acclimate and don't thrive without regular feeding of small live foods.
Newly hatched brine shrimp are an excellent food for adult Apistos and their fry. Marble Hatchets also eat them but they really do best when given some wingless fruitflies.
Tank raised, selectively bred, A.agassizi do fine in water with a pH between 6.0 and 6.8 and TDS between 20 and 100 ppm.
Wild specimens should be kept in softer water,`>50 ppm, as should A. bitaeniata which may be happier at a pH between 5.0 and 6.0.
Wild A. bitaeniata can be very shy.

 

[Cooder]

Its frustrating because i cant find a pH test kit that goes below 6.0, so all i can do is keep it at 6.0, or at least what it says is 6.0 because thats the minimum.
The water i am using for this setup comes out at the minimum it reads, so im hoping it is below 6.0, its rainwater in a poly tank. (i remember the last test kit i used said something like 5.6 or something, i cant find the same brand or kit though )
Ill ask the fish store whether they are looking really shy or not, maybe the WC fish wont be suitable for me?
As i said ill figure out what to do with the tetras if they cause trouble in the long run, im hoping that they will help the apistos acclimatize as dithers for a while, and then i will think about swapping them for pencil fish, my LFS didnt have any pencil fish either.
The redeyes are a concern, as they appear to be more boisterous and competitive that the neons and glowlights, turns out my LFS guy gave me the wrong amounts and wrong fish... im inclined not to go back there.

Thanks for the advice so far,

Any other general rules that apply to WC apistos and their breeding that i should know?

 

[Deaglan]

JBL do a pH test from 3,0-10. I have it as part of my JBL testlab.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cooder]

I decided to not go Wild caught for this tank, as the supplier said they are not going for any prepared foods, live and some frozen on, and im unable to get any live stuff before they come. Besides, im not quite sure whether my water conditions will be right for them.

Instead, I have gone for Apistogramma agassizzii (Net/Netz) Alenquer. Im very keen for them to arrive on wednesday, and will post up some pics when i can

 

[Cooder]

With Indian Almond leaves, Makes quite a difference....

 

[Apistomaster]

Apistogramma cf. agassizi nets/net is among my favorites. They were the last species of Apistogramma I had.
This was my male. You can make of the sleletal remains of a Cattapa leaf to the left.
I always use Indian Almond leaves in my Apistogramma tanks.

It doesn't matter very much whether they are tank raised or wild they still share the preferences for soft, acidic water and some live food. Newly hatched Brine Shrimp Nauplii satisfies the live food component of their diet. Those plus frozen blood worms forms about 80% of my Apistogramma diet. I also use earth work sticks which have a variety of animal protein and some vegetable material.
I also recommend that you strive to obtain a more comprehensive test kit which allows you to test for pH, GH and KH.
Like many other Apistogramma enthusiasts, I get by with just an electronic pH meter and an Electro-conductivity(EC)/Total Dissolved Solids(TDS) meter. These have become more affordable than ever.

 

[Cooder]

That is a very nice fish, i look forward to receiving mine, and hope that they are even as half as good as that specimen. I will look for one that does lower ph and all the rest, but at the moment i cant afford much to do with fish

 

[Apistomaster]

Thanks Cooder,
I really like those fish too.
I think you are approaching this project well enough that unless you run into real difficulties with your breeding attempts your use of rain water and Cattapa leaves will suffice. The A. agassizi group are not the most difficult of Apistogramma spp to breed.

 

[Cooder]

Well its good to hear from an experienced apisto keeper that i am on the right track so far. Its also good to hear that i have made a good choice of fish (although i was too hasty getting the redeye tetras) with my first project after the failure.

After observing the redeyes, i can see that they are really competitive for food, and i cant see much food getting to the bottom where the apistos will be, i so im most likely going to remove them, havent decided whether to setup a nano planted tank for them or give them to an LFS.

The 8 neons are the most peaceful of the lot, and are much smaller with smaller mouths and appetites to match, so my question for today is,

Would the female be able to defend from a group of the smaller neon tetras? would they even be able to eat the fry? they are much more peaceful i have noticed and i cant imagine them attacking a group of fry as the redeyes definitely would, they act like little piranhas!
Also, would the other female of the trio eat the fry? im guessing either one will be disliked when the other is spawning, so im planning for a single, thick floating plant incase the female decides to take up most of the tank as her territory!

Thanks for all the info that this site has provided, i will definitely stick up some photos when i get them!!

Cody

 

[Mike Wise]

The 8 neons are the most peaceful of the lot, and are much smaller with smaller mouths and appetites to match, so my question for today is,

Would the female be able to defend from a group of the smaller neon tetras?

Probably not. It really depends on factors like density of decoration and size of fry. Remember there is only 1 female to protect the fry from 8 other mouths. She will leave her fry to chase an approaching Neon and while she is away the other Neons are free to strike.

would they even be able to eat the fry?

Definitely yes, at least over the first 3-5 days.

they are much more peaceful i have noticed and i cant imagine them attacking a group of fry as the redeyes definitely would, they act like little piranhas!

Obviously you haven't see pictures of the tricuspate teeth that Neons possess! In many ways they make a piranha's teeth look tame

Also, would the other female of the trio eat the fry? im guessing either one will be disliked when the other is spawning, so im planning for a single, thick floating plant incase the female decides to take up most of the tank as her territory!

Another female will probably not be able to get close to a female with a brood. Sometime a female attract the fry to her and away from the mother, but usually just guards them. I use a floating piece of pipe for a hiding place for fish that don't have or lose a territory. My question to you is what will you do if both females come out with a school of fry at the same time? A 20H is rather small for this situation.

 

[Cooder]

My only option i think, although i would dislike having to do it, is remove the fry of one female at free swimming stage into a fry tank.

Would this situation be very likely to happen?


In person, there are alot of hiding holes and cover that u just cant see in the pictures, i will have to get a small tank for those neons then and give away the other tetras,
I might turn it into a proper nano planted tank, that sounds like a good idea lol.

 

[Apistomaster]

The Neon Tetra will quickly grow to their full size and before then they are able to eat Apistogramma fry. The best dithers are fish of both small size over all, small mouths and strongly surface oriented. That is why I use Pencilfish(Nannostomus spp).
There are a few other species used and I'm sure other members can share what they use successfully.

 

[regani]

If you plan to breed them be prepared for about 40 fry or so in each batch and depending on conditions that can happen every 4 weeks. Multiply that by two for two females and that is a lot of fry....
Unless you have another 2-3 tanks of decent size to grow them out (they will take a few months to get to a sellable size), you may wish you had left the neons in to reduce the number of fry

 

[Cooder]

Cheers, thanks for the info. ill see what i have available, other wise, im not sure what i will do.

 

[Cooder]

Hey guys, i picked up my trio today and am acclimatizing them as i type, they are looking real nice, but im not sure whether i have 2 females or 2 males, one looks a bit like a sub dom male. i will post up pics for you guys to see when they have settled in,

I have them quarantined, so will be a 5 - 7 days before i have them in the main tank