What can you say about these?

[Mark]

Hi all,

I have a male and female of this species swimming in my tanks. They are wildcaught from Colombia/Peru and that's all I know about them. The fish both resemble the A. norberti because of the black spot in the end of the dorsal fin, but the male is starting to get (he is still young and colouring up) extended dorsal fins and the tail gets two tips instead of a rounded edge. Both male and female do not show any extra horizontal stripes on the body. The tips of the dorsal fin and some places of the upper rays of the tailfin of the male are geting red....
I can't find a photo or description that matches these fish.. What do you say?

Mark

The male:

The female (guarding eggs):

 

[Mike Wise]

Well, from what I see it looks a lot like a slight variation on A. norberti. Body shape and dark markings (except visible abdominal stripes) all are the same as seen on A. norberti. The intensity of dark marking (and body color) can vary depending on mood, lighting, and even population. I have seen domestically-kept specimens develop extended dorsal lappets (you must be feeding them well ). In one of his discussions of A. norberti, Römer described a specimen in which the dorsal lobe of the caudal fin had a short extension, but not both lobes. My guess is that you have a super specimen of A. norberti. It will be interesting to see it when fully mature.

 

[Mark]

Hi Mike,

I think this fish might develop too much differences with norberti to call it the same, but at this age it is hard to see. I will wait for more colours and finshapes to develop and post a new photo here. Thanks for the reply.

To be continued

Mark

 

[Mark]

Well, the eggs didn't make it. That's not so strange as it was the first time the fish have spawned and they are still swimming in tap water.
The male is still colouring up. I will post a new photo as soon as he is finished and the fins have fully grown.

Mark

 

[Rolo]

Hi,

Not the best picture to identify, but y guess would be A. sp. Schwarzkinn, not A. norberti. The caudal spot seems to be separated from the lateral band.

regards,
Rolo

 

[Mark]

Hi Rolo, I see why you say Schwarzkinn, but that's not the correct species; they lack the black markings on the chin and the fish are less elongated as Schwarzkinn or cacatuoides. I have had real Schwarzkinn so I know for sure that's not the species. For me they seem to be a mix of sp. Cruzeiro, juruensis and norberti. Both male and female have a caudal spot seperate from the lateral line..
For norberti there is an other problem; the fish seem to come from the border Peru-Colombia (near Leticia). Norberti comes from a different location (or norberti has a bigger distrubution area).

Mark

 

[Rolo]

I see why you say Schwarzkinn, but that's not the correct species; they lack the black markings on the chin and the fish are less elongated as Schwarzkinn or cacatuoides.

Ah okay, I see. (Which means, it's not visible in the photo *g*)
Very interesting...

regards,
Rolo

 

[Mike Wise]

Well, is there any possibility that it could be "A. sp. Jutai New 2" (on Tom's web site: http://apisto.sites.no/page.aspx?pageid=53, a little more than half way down) discussed as "A new Apistogramma in the A.-cacatuoides-group (?) from Rio Jutai (Brazil), October 2009"? This fish was collected together with A. sp. Jutai/Diamond Face (= A. sp. Kelleri). Like Diamond Face, it is not from the Jutai (Brazil) but from the area around Leticia. Note the 'broken', chevron-like, vertical bars; very distinctive. Additional photos would definitely help. It's always helpful if you provide as detailed as possible collecting locality date, too. The "Colombia/Peru" range is mighty big.

 

[Mark]

It is possible because these fish come from the same collectors as the very first Kelleri. I don't know where they have been this time so I can't say more on the collecting locality. The last time there was 1 female I found between the Kelleri that looked like the Jutai new. (with broken lines, see other thread), but I couldn't say for sure. This new female looks the same as the first one, but she is almost always in this dress and not in a stress situation; I haven't seen any broken lines.

The first female has died ealier and I have never been able to identify her. As these fish do not show the broken lines and I can't compare them to the first female, I try not to be prejudiced. I found them in a tank between A. bitaeniata and A. sp. Kelleri coming from the collectors I mentioned.

So I am looking for the stress colouring on the female and the fully grown fins and markings on the male..

Mark

 

[Mark]

Hi Mike, rolo and all the others,

The fish from this post have been growing (and breeding) and I have made some new pictures. Most of them using a mirror so the markings and fins are better visible. I have heard that the fish come from the Leticia area and they came in together with Kelleri. This might be the cacatuoides type from Jutai (the wrong area) on Martin and Toms page, but I haven't seen the > markings. Very obvious is the black spot in the dorsal fins in both male and female, resembling the Norberti, but the spot is not as rounded and separated. For me this is a new species, close to cacatuoides/blackchin/juruensis. For now I call it A. sp. Dorsal spot as A. Leticia is being used fo Kelleri.

The pair:

The male:

The male showing all his markings (some lines below the lateral line, but these are only slightly visible and only wenn frightened. Female never shows these lines):

The male showing his head and chin:

The female in normal dress:

The female in fighting and guarding dress:

What do you say?

Mark

 

[Mark]

Some extra info: the male has black markings on his chin (see the photo), but not as much as the Blackchin. The female has never had the black markings of the Blackchin. She has a very faint stripe under the lip (horizontal) and thats all. In breeding dress this is completely gone.

Greeetings,
Mark

 

[Ruki]

For me those fishes are closer to A. norberti than to A. cacatuoides. Male looks like high-fin norberti with lyretail.

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree with Lukaz, probably a new species close to A. norberti. It is unfortunate that we do not know anything about it. I will be interested to learn if the offspring show the same high/lyre fins.

 

[Mark]

I am trying to get some extra info on the origin of the fish. The young are still 1,5 cm so they are too small to say.

Mark

 

[Gwendal]

I see A. norberti.







1 saludo

 

[Mark]

Well it's not norberti as the dorsal and caudal fin are different. Close to norberti and probably a new species. As soon as I can say more about the offspring or the origin I will let you know.

Mark